Episode 2 - A Presidential Blunder

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 2: “A Presidential Blunder”
Published on  July 7, 2020

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. This week's letter is from Elizabeth Willing Powel to George Washington. I am very excited to introduce Samantha Snyder as my very first guest on the podcast. Hi, Samantha.

Samantha Snyder

Hi!

Kathryn Gehred

Samantha is the reference librarian at the Fred W. Smith National Library for the study of George Washington at Mount Vernon, and a fellow enthusiast for eighteenth century women's letters. She's pursuing her master's degree at George Mason University, and is probably the world's foremost expert on Elizabeth Willing Powel. Actually, she has a chapter that's going to be coming out pretty soon in a book. What was that chapter again?

Samantha Snyder 

It's a chapter in an upcoming book on George Washington and the women in his world. And it's called, at the moment, roughly titled "One of my best friends and favorites, the friendship of George Washington and Elizabeth Willing Powel."

Kathryn Gehred 

I actually met Samantha while I was doing some research at the Washington library. And we just hit it off right away. She was one of the best archivists and librarians that I've had the pleasure to work with.

Samantha Snyder 

Thank you. Thank you.

Kathryn Gehred

Alright, so before we get started, can you tell me a little bit about how you first discovered Elizabeth Willing Powel?

Samantha Snyder 

Sure. Um, so it's kind of a random story. So, we have this box of documents at work, we tend to have what's called "Document Viewings" when we give tours of our library. And there is an Elizabeth Willing Powel letter to George Washington in that box of documents. That actually was written on my mother's birthday, just a couple hundred years prior, but it's written on November 4, 1792. And my mom's birthday is November 4. And I won't say the year for her sake, and so I was I first was kind of intrigued, just by the date, it made me look at the letter again. And then I started reading it, and I was like, 'Wow, this woman seems fascinating.' And then it all just kind of spun very quickly from there into into this now, almost two year long project. So that's really how it all began. I just think she's a fascinating woman, and as I did more research on her, I realized how many letters we had back and forth between Elizabeth Powel, George Washington, and Martha Washington, and some other family members too.

Kathryn Gehred 

Tell me a little bit about Elizabeth Willing Powel as a person.

Samantha Snyder 

Sure. So Elizabeth Willing Powel. She was born in 1742 in Philadelphia, so she is about ten years younger than Washington. She was born into two very elite families. So, she grew up pretty well connected from a young age. She lived right in the city of Philadelphia. For her whole life, she lived nearly on the same street, but she was best known during her lifetime as a hostess of many salons at her house. So her house was on Third Street, and it was really the central location for a lot of gatherings with different politicians during the time. So George Washington, of course, was a frequent attendant at these different events. And he took tea there a lot, and he had dinner there, but also people like John Adams, were there, Marquis de Lafayette, the Marquis du Chatel, all of these different men were going through that house and other elite families. So so she was really known as a connector of of, of people and really facilitated these kind of amazing conversations that happened throughout that time.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. So sort of like this was, and this was very early days for American republic. So they weren't sure how similar the new American government was going to be to sort of the French court or the English court where there were a lot of these sort of salons and society events and things like that. So she's sort of the American version of that. Would you say? 

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, I would say I would say that. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred 

On on my end, working with the George Washington papers, I heard about Elizabeth Willing Powel. And when people were making the argument that George Washington had a lot of close female friendships, which was a side of him that I hadn't really ever heard of before. So I was always interested in that. But I've only seen the few letters with Elizabeth between with her and Martha.

Samantha Snyder 

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah. sent me this one. I thought it was very exciting.

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, yes, I agree.

Kathryn Gehred

And is there anything that specifically about Elizabeth Willing Powel's letters that made you want to learn more about her,

Samantha Snyder 

Um, just the way that they are phrased and the way she spoke? I know people spoke differently in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, but she just has a really eloquent way of speaking and a funny way of speaking to and the way she talks to people, men and women, just kind of intrigued me, and I've enjoyed reading through her correspondence and actually transcribing her correspondence, because I really get a feel for who she is as a person. And, I feel very lucky that the person I chose to study has so many letters that still survived because I know not everyone is that lucky.

Kathryn Gehred 

Alright, so let's dig into it for the letter this week. Can you tell me a little bit about the context of this particular letter?

Samantha Snyder 

Sure. So the letter is written in March of 1797. So what's going on with George Washington at the time this letter was written is he is on his way back to Mount Vernon. He had decided not to serve a third term as president in September of 1796. And John Adams was elected in December of 1796. And then had just been inaugurated on the fourth, which is a few days before this letter was written. Washington was on his way back to Mount Vernon and start selling off a lot of his things that he didn't want to take back with him. He, he sells off his writing desk, he sells off some his his horses and then we think he sold off his coach, but that's a whole other story.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's interesting that he's selling these things off also, like 'Come on, George.' I know I know people some stuff.

Samantha Snyder 

I know. I know that he's making everybody buy it, but yeah, and then there's things that I know that he would want to have stay at Philadelphia and not go back to Mount Vernon like Nelly Custis' dog. There's a funny letter where he's like, I wouldn't mind if we forgot him. Snipe the dog, I think I think it's it was Snipe.

Kathryn Gehred 

That it doesn't he say that about Martha's birds? Doesn't Martha have some birds?

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, he's like, just keep them there. But sure enough, they come back. Anyway. Um, so, so that's kind of the context of of what Washington is doing. And so he's at this point, sold Elizabeth the desk, and she has it at her house, which is still surviving, actually the house that she's living at at this point. It's a historic house museum in Philadelphia. And I highly recommend going and seeing it, it's wonderful, and the organization that runs it, they're also wonderful. So, so she gets this desk, and at this point in her life, her husband actually passed away during the yellow fever epidemic in 1793. He died right at the end of September of 1793. So, she's been a widow now for about just over three years. And so she pretty quickly, as a widow, started taking on sole financial responsibility for her husband's estate. And then he also he owned a lot of land in Philadelphia and a lot of homes in Philadelphia. So she's managing those properties, and also still entertaining still purchasing new things for her house, including this desk. So, so she is a widow, but she's not isolated. She there's plenty of letters that still talks about going to her house, and having tea, and having drinks and that sort of thing. So that's really the context of her life at that point.

Kathryn Gehred 

Alright, so without further ado, let's read this letter.

Samantha Snyder 

Okay. All right. So, okay, this letter was written on March 11, 1797.

Like a true Woman (as you will think) in the Moment of Exultation, and on the first Impulse (for you know we are never supposed to act Systematically or from attentive Consideration,[)] I take up my Pen to address you, as you have given me a complete Triumph on the Subject of all others on which you have I suppose thought me most deficient, and most opposite to yourself; and what is still more charming—your Candor shall preside as Judge, nay you shall pass Sentence on yourself, and I will not appeal from your Decision. Suppose I should prove incontestably that you have without Design put into my Possession the love Letters of a Lady addressed to you under the most solemn Sanction; & a large Packet too. What will the Goddess of Prudence and Circumspection say to her favorite Son and Votary for his dereliction of Principles to which he has hitherto made such serious Sacrifices. Was the Taste of your Sex predominant in your Breast; and did the Love of Variety so preponderate, that because you had never blundered as President, was you determined to try its Delights as a private Gentleman; but to keep you no longer in Suspense, tho’ I know that your Nerves are not as irritable as a fine Ladies, yet I will with the Generosity of my Sex relieve you, by telling you—that upon opening one of the Drawers of your writing Desk I found a large Bundle of Letters from Mrs Washington bound up and labled with your usual Accuracy. Mr Lear was present, I immediately desired him to take Charge of the Package which he declined—alleging that he thought it was safer in my Hands, at least for some Time—at first I urged it; but finding him Inflexible as I suppose from Motives of Delicacy I sealed them up And I trust it is unnecessary for me to add that they will be keept Inviolably until I deliver them to him or to your Order. As Mr Lear has been connected both with you and Mrs Washington, and as it is probable that some family Circumstances may have been mingled into her Communications to you, to save his Feelings I have sealed the Package with Three Seals bearing the Impression of my blessed Friends Arms, such as that I myself use. Should Mrs Washington appear to have any unpleasant Sensations on this Subject you will I am certain remove them by reminding her—that tho’ Curiosity is supposed to be a prominent feature of the female Mind, yet it will ever be powerfully counteracted when opposed by native Delicacy, or sense of Honor, and I trust a pious Education.1

I shall my good Sir give to Mr Lear 245 Dollars which I find was the first Cost of the writing Desk. In my Estimation its Value is not in the least diminished by your use of it; nor from its having been the Repository of those valuable Documents that originated with you during your wise and peaceful Administration for Eight Years.2 I am sensible many true & handsome Compliments might be paid to you on this Occasion; but as they have been resounded with Elegance & Sincerity through the Whole Continent, and will be re-echoed by Posterity, as you must be conscious they are just and as you are not a Man of Vanity, I will not in my blundering Way attempt a Theme that I feel myself totally inadequate to, as Blundering would not have to me even the Charm of variety to recommend it.

And now let me return you Thanks for your Tributes of Affection. Mr Lear has sent me in your Name a Pair of Lamps & Brackets with the Appendages.3 From you they are acceptable tho from no other Being out of my own Family would I receive a pecuniary Favor, nor did I want any inanimate Memento to bring you to my Recollection. I most sincerely hope to hear that you are all well and safely arrived at Mount Vernon long before you will receive this Scrawl. Be pleased to present my best Wishes to Mrs Washington & Miss Custis. Truly & affectionately I have the Honor to be, Sir Your most Obedt & Obliged

And she dockets it as His Excellency, General Washington sent by the post Monday 20th instant. So, the copy that I'm reading from as it is a draft copy, postscript,

"March 13, Mr. Leer dined with me yesterday, I desired him not to mention the Circumstance alluded to in the first <Para>-graph of this Letter, therefore, Mrs. W. need not be informed of it unless you choose to tell her yourself EP."

Kathryn Gehred 

This is a good letter, I was just so excited.

Samantha Snyder 

I know, we talked about a couple of different ones. And I was sitting there like kind of brainstorming some other ideas. And then I thought, well, these are just too good.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, so obviously, she's using a lot of very flowery language, which is something that is very common at the time. And I think she's actually doing it quite well. But if you were going to summarize, just for some a modern listener, what is going on in this letter what has happened? 

Samantha Snyder 

So, to summarize it for a modern listener, she has bought a desk from him. And in the eighteenth century, Washington would often store his letters and desks, but the fact that it's something so private as letters from a wife to to her husband, she's teasing him about it, and the whole thing that is so funny, that I really like is the whole bit at the beginning about never blundering as President. I think that's so fascinating that she's like, 'You never made any mistakes when you were president. And you are determined, were you determined to try its delights as a private gentleman.' So basically, she's saying, now you're like the rest of us. That's how I interpret that, like, 'Oh, you were so perfect until now you're not?'

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, I also because she's sort of she's she doesn't come right out with the fact that there is lenders right away. So if she's sort of implying for just a second that he she has loved letters for him from someone and just trying to get them to get a little nervous. And then she halfway says, Oh, I have the love letters from your wife.

Samantha Snyder 

That's what I think because that she's trying to tease him. She's trying to be like, Hey, I found some love letters. And then and then she knows, I think she knew that Washington wouldn't have cheated on his wife, although although there are historians who argue that he cheated on Martha Washington with Elizabeth Powel. But, you know, sometimes these letters, it's kind of like, but but but yeah, I think that's kind of that's what she's doing is teasing him about something that she knew he would probably never do.

Kathryn Gehred 

Right. And and, like, I'm also of the side that like eighteenth century correspondence just tends to be flirty.

Samantha Snyder 

Absolutely.

Kathryn Gehred

sound in a modern audience. But also like, wouldn't it be crazy though if he was cheating on Martha Washington with Elizabeth Powel for him to then sell her a desk twice? That would add a little twist to that knife, a big old twist. So so how does he respond to this letter?

Samantha Snyder 

Oh, and yes, so I will read you his first bit where he responds to her beginning paragraph. So so this letter from George Washington to Elizabeth Powel is written on the 26th. So at this point, he is back at Mount Vernon, and so he gets her letter as as it says at the bottom of her letter, she sent it on the 20th. And he gets it at Mount Vernon, and so he responds back just as flirtily. I would say it's pretty funny. It's very unlike Washington to be quite so. Not so formal in his letters, I guess. I'll go ahead and read a little bit of of his letter,

"My dear madam, a mail of last week brought me the honor of your favor, began the 11th and ended the 13th of this instant, had it not been for one circumstance, which by the by is a pretty material one, that I had no love letters to lose the introductory with, without the explanatory part of your letter would have caused a serious alarm and might have tried how far my nerves were able to sustain the shock of having betrayed the confidence of a lady. But although I had nothing to apprehend on that score, I am not less surprised at my having left those letters of Mrs. Washington in my writing desk, when as I suppose I had emptied all the drawers mistaken in this, however, I have to thank you for the delicacy with which they have been treated, but admitting that they had fallen into more inquisitive hands, the correspondence would, I am persuaded have been found to be more fraught with expressions of friendship than of enamored love. And consequently, if the ideas of the possessor of them with respect to the ladder passion should have been of the romantic order to have given them the warmth, which was not inherited, they might have been committed to the flames."

So, so that's all he says on that, and then he goes into detail about his his trip back from Philadelphia, which, in the amount of times, I've now taken trips back and forth from Philly, I realized he's basically taking 95 He goes to Chester, then he goes through Maryland, and it's just like, oh, I recognize all these towns. Yeah, so really, that's it at the end. There's kind of a nice little I'll read this last little paragraph because this is something that all of our curators and people that work at Mount Vernon find kind of interesting. He says, Okay, we so this is after they've arrived back he says,

"We are like the beginners of a new establishment, having everything in a manner to do houses and everything else to repair rooms to paint, paper, whitewash, etc, etc. But although these things are troublesome and disagreeable, as they will involve us in a good deal of litter and dirt, yet they will serve to give exercise to both the mind and body. My paper reminds me of the necessity of concluding which I shall do with the best wishes of Mrs. W. And Miss Custis added to my insurances of being Dear Madam, your most obedient and affectionate servant, George Washington."

So that's that's the send off, which was kind of nice.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah, that's really sweet.

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, yeah. And I think the parts kind of cool about they have embarked on a new journey yet again, because they'd been in you know, very society, Philadelphia for several years and probably seen a lot of beautiful homes and they want to make theirs more contemporary.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's also it's funny that he started out being sort of a little bit racy with you know, if there were any letters that were more romantic. Yeah, like burn them. And then he, you know, very George Washington.

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, very formal.

Kathryn Gehred

Imagining all these really very spicy Martha Washington letters that she said during the revolution that he cast into flames.

Samantha Snyder 

It is so interesting, and it's I still what's interesting about these, this correspondence is that it really doesn't make clear who the letters ended up with, or how they got to where they are. She talks about dining with Tobias Lear. But she doesn't necessarily say she gave the letters to him. I think it's kind of implied. Yeah, but it is kind of interesting to think are those still out there somewhere bound up with the seal of the with the Powel family seal

Kathryn Gehred 

For people who might not be aware of Martha Washington burned all of her correspondence with George. And I think there's only three letters that survive and one of them is a very small note. So some any letters between them would just be such an amazing find be something that we're really interested in.

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Kathryn Gehred 

Also that Tobias Lear that they keep mentioning, if you're not familiar with him, he was a secretary of the Washington's for quite a few years, and he married not one but two of Martha's nieces. Both of them named Fanny.

Samantha Snyder 

Yes.

Kathryn Gehred

Has always been just ridiculous to me. Weirdly, Tobias Lear heavy episode. Alright, so Okay, back to the letter. One of the things that sort of struck me when I first looked at it is how much Elizabeth Willing Powel talks about being like a true woman, and her feminine nature, and feminine curiosity and things like that. So why do you think she used that kind of language in here?

Samantha Snyder 

Well, she, and a lot of her letters is very talks about being a timid woman and this sort of stuff, and I've always been kind of intrigued by that. And I think it was partially a practice of the time, like a lot of times women would do that similar with the scroll at the end and burn this letter, that sort of stuff, but she is very focused on gentility and manners. That's something I have noticed. And she she reads quite a bit. And she reads a lot of different types of books. Yeah, so I think it kind of comes from that maybe it comes from her education and her her focus, maybe because she was a hostess and hosted salons for so long. She She kind of grew up in the world of being this, I don't know, kind of eloquent figure, and you need it to be on your best.

Kathryn Gehred 

Did she say anytime in France, because it says she has, it seems like she has this sort of French salon style type.

Samantha Snyder 

She did not she did not, which is actually very interesting.

Kathryn Gehred

Interesting.

Samantha Snyder 

She never left Phil Well, the Philadelphia region, she went to Virginia, and she would go up to visit family in Germantown, and then over to New Jersey. But as far as I'm aware, she never left those couple of states, she never went abroad. But she read like crazy. And, and that kind of comes through how much she knows just based on reading and other people when they talk about her, talk about her love of reading and talk about how knowledgeable she is. And even the the Marquis du Chatel. He references that "though she has not traveled, she has read a great deal."

Kathryn Gehred 

And then you can definitely tell from her writing style. She has that sort of eighteenth century long sentences, lots of emotion, things like that.

Samantha Snyder 

Definitely, definitely.

Kathryn Gehred

Compared to somebody like Martha who doesn't read as much. And she didn't have a very good education, she sort of writes, if it's a long sentence, it's just a run on sentence with a lot of short points within it. Yeah, whereas this seems like she's definitely going for a style here, which is really interesting. 

Samantha Snyder 

It is interesting. And it's it's a very consistent style throughout her life. Even the earliest letters I've looked at are from when she's about 26-27. And she speaks very similarly to how she does when she's in her 70s. Like, she just kind of has that way of speaking. And I've looked at some of her siblings letters. And they have a similar way of speaking, but even they address how she is as a person and kind of her unique sense of self to be polite.

Kathryn Gehred 

I love the little postscript at the end, because she definitely is polite and giving George Washington and out where he doesn't have to admit to Martha that he gave away some of her love letters. Which is, I think, very interesting.

Samantha Snyder 

It's kind of like woman protecting a woman almost because they were they were friends. So, but it just made me wonder to like, like, like, I guess that was nice of Elizabeth to be like, 'Oh, by the way, you can just like slip these back in telling her' like, and I think part of that comes from with her saying that she she sealed them up. So, I think Martha would have recognized the the Powell seal because Elizabeth sealed her letters to them quite often. And Samuel Powel did when he was alive. So, I do think that that's part of it too, that that? I think she's saying like, you can take them out of that if you want because then Martha won't know that someone else has seen these letters besides you. So, or at least that's how I'm interpreting that. I don't know.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, and this adds to my ongoing evidence pile that Martha Washington could be a force of nature when she was angry.

Samantha Snyder 

Exactly. I agree. I agree. Because if she was the demure woman that sometimes she's portrayed as I don't think either George or Elizabeth would would care about this bundle letters, like so. So clearly she is a force of nature in her own right. And I think that's why Elizabeth Powel was friends with her as well, because she had her own sense of being a powerful woman.

Kathryn Gehred 

All right, any any sort of thoughts. I guess the other thing is, and we talked about this a little bit like Elizabeth Powel teasing George Washington like this, and for him to respond with just sort of teasing back is just a really different side of George Washington than we usually see, and also, there's a lot of people who say, anybody who interacted with George Washington ever was one of his close friends. You'll notice that in a lot of books, people are always trying to get like connection to Washington. But Elizabeth Willing Powel, just from this exchange, you can tell this is somebody who was actually very close with George Washington, and they actually had a really good rapport.

Samantha Snyder 

Absolutely. I agree. I think I think in, in looking at some other ways, Washington interacted with different people and interact with other women. He clearly had a respect for women and he, he writes to Anna Stockton and Elizabeth Graeme Fergusson and Catherine Macaula Graham and he you know, he has kind of intellectual letters with them. But, I've not seen anything like this with another woman where he's he's being so kind of open and kind of just silly in the way George Washington can be silly.

Kathryn Gehred 

This is peak Washington silly. 

Samantha Snyder 

Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like the only comparable thing is him in the Marquis du Chatel, I think they have kind of a similar weird sort of back and forth. But I think that shows with Washington, I think it shows a level of respect to that. He feels like he can be a little less stoic than you normally is. So, but yes, they and they kind of have this is by far the most flirty, their letters are like most kind of teasing. But, they definitely have a repport going like he writes her a little note in the 1780s. They are going to go see, and I think you probably recognize this letter, the the little note about the school for scandal, where he says he he's going on a fishing trip the next day, so he can't go to a play with the Powels, but he is called the School for Scandal. And he says something along the lines. I don't have it in front of me. But he says something along the lines of I know I need a lesson in the school for scandal. You can tell you probably thought that was so funny.

Kathryn Gehred 

All right. Well, I just want to say thank you so much, Samantha for joining me.

Samantha Snyder 

Absolutely, absolutely. This was so fun.

Kathryn Gehred 

As always, I am your most obedient and humble servant.

Kathryn Gehred 

Hi, this is Kathryn, I just wanted to cut in and thank you so much for listening to your most obedient and humble servant. I've been absolutely thrilled and so thankful for all the support we've received so far. This is a small podcast that I make pretty much on my own. So, any literally any help you're able to give to promote it goes a very long way. A quick thing that you can do to help the podcast is to go into iTunes and rate and review the podcast there. It's silly, but it's just sort of an algorithmic thing that leads more people to the podcast. Also, if you want to spread the word, you can tweet at us. We're on Twitter at humservt (humservant). Of course, as always, the best way to promote a podcast is word of mouth. So feel free to tell all of your nerd friends and your history friends and your feminist friends, anybody about the podcast. Once again, I just want to thank you so much for listening. I've just been overwhelmed by the kind words and support that we've gotten so far. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. So thank you so much for listening.