Episode 35 - George Wiseacre Parke Custis

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 35 - “George Wiseacre Parke Custis"

Published on November 10, 2022

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is Women's History podcast where we feature 18th and early 19th century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. I am delighted this week to introduce today's guest to be always wonderful Samantha Snyder. Hi, Samantha!

Samantha Snyder

Hi!

Kathryn Gehred

Samantha is the reference librarian at the Fred W. Smith National Library for the study of George Washington at Mount Vernon. And I'm thrilled to say the author of a chapter in a forthcoming book.

Samantha Snyder

Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

What's the title of that again, I'm sorry.

Samantha Snyder  

It's called The Women in George Washington's World. So, it is a edited volume. This is going to be terrible if I say the wrong number, but it is an edited volume of nine essays that are all about different women that were in one way or another affiliated with George Washington or he knew them. Um, so it's people like Elizabeth Powell, who was a good friend, Martha Washington, Phyllis Wheatley. There's an essay about her, so great group of authors too.

Kathryn Gehred 

Samantha was the first guest that I had on the podcast, and we talked about this chapter coming out, and I had been working with the "Martha" project for like five years at that point, but our books are coming out at the same time.

Samantha Snyder

Yay, COVID.

Kathryn Gehred

This week, though, we've we've spent the spin on a couple times, and we've talked about Elizabeth Willing Powel letters, and we even made a recipe for muffins that Elizabeth Willing Powel wrote, which I'll share in the notes of this podcast, because that was a good time. But today, we're doing something a little bit different. This is a letter from Martha Washington's granddaughter Eleanor "Nellie" Park Custis. We've done an episode from Nellie earlier, so if you'd like a more in depth introduction to her, go back and listen to episode seven "Strange, Most Passing Strange." But for now, just as a short introduction, this is Martha Washington's granddaughter, who Martha and George basically raised during George Washington's presidency, they took her and her brother from their mother's household and took them with them to New York and Philadelphia, so she had sort of a little American princess upbringing. So how did you come across this letter, Samantha?

Samantha Snyder 

Well, so I'm lucky enough, of course, to work at Mount Vernon. So, I have a lot of things easily at my fingertips, and I get to talk about different things and that sort of stuff. So, I was actually preparing for a little video on Nellie. And I was going through some of her, her letters just kind of trying to get an idea of who she was as a young woman, because that's really what the talk focused on. So, I was reading through and somehow it's funny how you read things, and they just don't catch your attention at the time. That's how this letter was like, I would have read it because I've read the edited volume of her papers. And I've seen you know, the originals, but I just found this and I was like, oh my god, this is an amazing letter. All of the best gossip and the best dramaticism that I've ever seen.

Kathryn Gehred 

Young Nellie is hysterical. Martha describes her at one point as half crazy.

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, yes. In a little wild thing or whatever. Like she's a little wild creature.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, yes, yes. At this point, what is going on in Nelli's life? Yes. So, this is from 1798.

Samantha Snyder 

So she's 19, and she is back at Mount Vernon after the presidency has ended. She's been there now this is May, she's been there a little over a year back at Mount Vernon and her future husband Lawrence Lewis is hanging out at Mount Vernon at this point. And but yet, as she says in a later letter, that "Cupid has not yet struck her with the man known as Lawrence Lewis."

Kathryn Gehred 

Took a little while.

Samantha Snyder 

But yeah, so they're living at Mount Vernon. That's when Washington has retired. So they kind of think they're, they're much more relaxed, yet they still have a constant stream of visitors as we know.

Kathryn Gehred 

The letters where they talk about inviting Lawrence Lewis to come live in Mount Vernon and George Washington says basically like these kids want to stay up too late. I need somebody to come and entertain these children that he views, so I can go to bed.

Samantha Snyder 

Or, doing whatever you heard out on the piazza doing youth things.

Kathryn Gehred 

She's briefly visiting her mother's house at Hope park, when she's writing this, and she's writing to her friend, Elizabeth Bordley, who lived in Philadelphia still at this point?

Samantha Snyder 

So, Elizabeth Bordley was one of Nellie's best, best friends and lifelong best friends, which is really cool. So Elizabeth Bordley lives in Philadelphia for most of her life, too, and marries a man Gibson that's in the 19th century. But yeah, she stays in Philadelphia and really is kind of Nellie's sort of consistent presence in Philly to let her like Elizabeth always writes back information on everybody and kind of what's going on in the city, and even though Nellie's like, 'Oh, I'm so happy to not be not in the city like I'm out in the, in the rural wilderness enjoy myself.' She clearly misses it. And so Elizabeth Bordley is a really good way for her to keep in touch with people and just kind of have her finger on the pulse.

Kathryn Gehred 

Like do you like to read the letter? Sure. All right. 

Samantha Snyder 

So, this letter was written on May 14, 1798.

"My dearest Eliza's most acceptable favor of May 3, I've received two days since from Mount Vernon, whether the mail carried it and from whence I came 10 days ago, I hasten to thank you for this and your former epistles and to request that you will continue to write me as often as you can conveniently without ceremoniously waiting for an answer. As you may believe me, my dear friend, when I assure you that you can never write too often your letters are always a source of real delight to me. And if I do not always return letter for letter, it is not from want of inclination or affection, I have, as you requested, contradicted positively the report of your engagement with Mr. Holker, wherever I have heard it mentioned, at the same time, giving the young man credit for all the good qualities he now possesses, or may hereafter possess and now to relieve your suffering Ladyship from the tender hooks of impatience, curiosity, et cetera, et cetera, on which you are so uncomfortably dangling, no doubt, even at this present, writing my super abundant delicacy, would not have kept my tongue tied until this time, when I knew the interest you take in whatever concerns me, if there was any truth in this report, the second part of less spring's rumor, and with as much foundation as then existed for it, I can't think who the wiseacre is who lately left Mount Vernon, and who vouches for the authenticity of the affair, or how Mr. Craig, the most honorable member could know that the young persons in question have had since last spring, an excellent opportunity of knowing each other to my certain knowledge, who you will allow should know something of the matter, they have never directly or indirectly set eyes on each other, but once since the races in April 12 month, of which I gave you information. Report has often informed me that he was attached to a certain Eleanor Parke Custis, an oddity of these parts, but as he has never told it to her by tongue or pen, therefore, she is yet in the dark as to the truth of the surmise, and consequently, she is not nor has been engaged to said Charles Carroll, therefore, of course, your impatience, anxiety and all that goes for nothing. There is at present no shadow of the event, clouds and darkness rests upon it, and you or anyone else know as much of the business as I do. Mr. Carroll was at Mount Vernon in March stayed one day and night, nothing more than common civility passed on either side, and he marched off as he came, since when I have neither seen him or heard anything of his movements. You will excuse my not describing said youth, his external appearance I portrayed to you last spring, my acquaintance since being only have one day standing does not authorize me to speak up his internal qualities. By all accounts, they exceeded his personal attractions which are not very great, although quite equal to most of the youth of the present day. If I should ever be engaged to him or any other person, you may rely upon having the earliest and most candid information without being necessitated to interrogate me. I left Mount Vernon with my sister-in-law to come here on a visit to my dearest mother, whom I had not seen for several months, I left my beloved grandparents and Sister Peter well, and found the family here in perfect health. Mr. And Mrs. Law left us last week with my charming niece Eliza, who was very much improved. My sister and brother were much pleased with their visit to Philadelphia and the kinds of tensions they met with their Sister Peter has returned to the city. Her sweet children were dangerously ill for two days, but they had recovered almost when I came away. I have never been out since I returned from the city have seen few persons and heard no news. Many thanks, my charming friend for the songs sent and I sing it every day with strong patriotic feelings and I think it very fun. I am full, as patriotic as you can be Bet, and to speak truth I am becoming an outrageous politician, perfectly federal and determined even to lend a hand to extirpate the demons if their unparalleled impudence and thirst of conquest should make them attempt an invasion of our peaceable Happy Land. Have you courage enough think you to turn soldier on such an occasion. If you have let me know it and I will enroll you in my core of independent volunteers. If occasion suits, we may perhaps dub ourselves knights, you must procure a black dress the fashion of it we will settle here after we shall have black helmets of Morocco leather ornamented with black bugles and an immense plume of black feathers. You have no idea how becoming it will be. We shall tower above the rest, our arms shall be lances, pistols, bows and arrows, and I shall take a special care to provide burned quarks or charcoal sufficient to furnish amply the whole association of valorous knights with immense whiskers and mustachios of uncommon magnitude to strike with all the beholders my ambition fires at the thought, and I feel chock full of fight, think child how glorious to be celebrated as the preservers of our friend and country in such a cause a woman's vengeance towers above above her sex, we shall perform wonders, I am sure and our fame will be transmitted to latest posterity. I've already engaged several of the sisterhood to be ready at a moment's warning. I am Commander in Chief of the Corps, I am at present quietly seated in this still retreat, free from noise and bustle, enjoying the present and keeping myself in readiness for and prepared to meet anything that may come round in the course of events. I do not wish to dance again until next winter, I almost lamed myself last winter. I am not at all surprised you wish for retirement. I would not exchange mine for all the pomp and vanity of this wicked world. I expect to remain here some weeks longer. If you write to me in the interim, direct your letters to Mount Vernon and I shall get them regularly as here to for. You will have some difficulty to read the scroll, I fear. I have copied part of it, but it is still hardly legible. I beg you will remember me with great respect and affection to your parents friendly greetings to brother, Mr. Mifflin, and compliments to all our old friends who are kind enough to remember me. Be assured my dearest Eliza of the firm and lasting attachment of your Eleanor Park customers."

Wow! What a letter.

Kathryn Gehred 

I was getting all riled up. I was ready to go out and fight too!

Samantha Snyder 

I know I was like, I want to have a plume of feathers, and a black dress, and like the charcoal mustachios.

Kathryn Gehred 

Gigantic mustache.

Samantha Snyder 

 I love that. Gigantic mustache like but the curls like just,

Kathryn Gehred 

Clearly there's a lot going on. Everybody thinks everybody's engaged. 

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, yes, classic. Yes. It's, it reminds me of like, celebrities almost because clearly this information is traveling from Philadelphia to Alexandria to DC and back again. And, so there is a gossip mill that is going all up and down the eastern seaboard. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. And, she's like, she's the little princess. She's the little

Samantha Snyder 

People are going to be observing her and watching her every movement at races, and dances, and all that.

Kathryn Gehred 

So first, she's shutting down, what does she say about Mr. Holker? People think that Elizabeth Bordley is engaged to one Mr. Holker.

Samantha Snyder 

Mr. Holker. Who I tried to look up, and I think his name is John Luis Holker. I don't think he's the only son of this John Volker, and he was probably in Paris for most of this time, but I think he might have come to Philadelphia. I don't think he got married until after this letter is written. Oh, in a Frenchman which that goes way against Nellies whole argument and what is going on in the world.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so that explains a little bit about where she says, I love the way she puts it she's like, 'giving the young man credit for all the good qualities he now possesses or may hereafter possess.' I don't know if he has good qualities, he might eventually get good quality.

Samantha Snyder

We'll see.

Kathryn Gehred

She's shutting down any rumor that Elizabeth is engaged Mr. Holker. And then she has this very long drawn out introduction to the rumor that she is engaged, she herself is engaged in the way that she doesn't know if she you know, report has often informed me that he is attached to a certain Eleanor Parke Custis.

Samantha Snyder 

And, I love that she refers to herself in the third person. I'm like, Oh my God, you would like it's just so perfect, because that again kind of leans into the whole sort of like, it's a it's gossip. Like it's like it's not even heard. It's like this, this character this like celebrity and she's like, Oh, that Eleanor Parker justice that's, I don't know.

Kathryn Gehred 

So I didn't know who this Charles Carroll was. So I was like, Okay, quick, I'll go over to founders and see who this is. And of course, that led me to more letters and letters, and so it seems that Nellie's brother has been pushing this rumor he's like George Washington Parke Custis has been part of the problem of this rumor. There's a letter that he wrote to George Washington, where he writes

"I find that young Mr. Carroll has been at Mount Vernon and reports says, addressing my sister, it may be well to sort of join an opinion which I believe is general in this place of," George Washington Marcus just the way he writes letters. "That he is a young man of the strictest probity and morals discreet without closeness, temperate without excess, and modest without vanity possessed of those amiable qualities of benevolence and friendship, which are so commendable in any one. And with as few vices as the age will admit of this may be excused as I'm acting on hypotheses and supposition. In short, I think it's a desirable thing and wish that it may take place with all my heart." So, he's like giving his permission.

Samantha Snyder 

Like, yeah, like he's giving this permission, like Nellie needs it. Like he's like, I think it will be great. I really do. I mean, being the younger brothers, like, I am the only brother so 

Kathryn Gehred 

I'm writing to George Washington.

Samantha Snyder

Like what?

Kathryn Gehred 

George Washington writes back and he said, Yeah, Mr. Carroll came here, about a fortnight to go to dinner and left us next morning after breakfast. If his object was such, as you say, has been reported. It was not declared here. And therefore the less is set upon the subject, particularly by your sister's friends, the more prudent it will be until the subject develops itself more.

Samantha Snyder 

Amazing.

Kathryn Gehred 

Classic George, classic George.

Samantha Snyder

And, we all know who his favorite grandchild was Lily.

Kathryn Gehred

Oh, yeah. He was sticking up her. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, he's basically saying the same thing and just like the less is set upon the subject after George Washington spend confirming it, fabulous.

Samantha Snyder 

He like condenses Nellie's 5 million paragraph into one thing. And it definitely like does show that they were taped, like young people at that point him just being like your sister's friends like that's just like today really? Love.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, so apparently Charles Carroll, the reason that he came to visit, was because he wanted to be George Washington's aide de camp, because again, this is one of those historical moments where I'm sure many some of my listeners are very familiar with the quasi war with France. I was not before really digging into this era.

Samantha Snyder 

Me neither.

Kathryn Gehred

I was sort of surprised when I was transcribing the letters from it's a very brief period between George Washington's retirement and before he passes away, I was just sort of a picturing this like happy, you know, pastoral Mount Vernon existence, but the letters are all very warlike, because we were at that moment in history, in a they call it the "Quasi War with France," because it was never like a full, it wasn't a Cold War, it was a naval war, but like, it never really blew up the way it was supposed to. So it had to do with the XYZ affair, and the Jay Treaty, and the United States foreign relations with France were very, very tense. And clearly, the Federalists, which Nellie who has become perfectly federal in this letter,

Samantha Snyder 

Perfectly federal.

Kathryn Gehred

Like wanted this to be a full war with France, like ASAP, and to the extent that they they actually called George Washington back to be Commander in Chief of the armed forces again, and so when George Washington died, everything was revving up and Alexander Hamilton is doing some kind of like shady things. I'm describing this so badly but so read up on the Quasi War.

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, they're all like doing these secret meetings and that November and all and stuff and yeah.

Kathryn Gehred  

Yeah. And and, and so obviously, you know, the Jeffersonian party, the Democratic Republicans, love France, their they they're like, 'Oh, this is all this is, this is all puffed up,' this isn't this isn't a real threat, and then the Federalists are saying this is this is this is so much of a threat that like they think that the French are actually going to invade. I was so glad that she actually said like, she uses the word invade, thirst of conquest should make them attempt an invasion of our peaceable, happy Land. So, she's saying that like the French are actually going to arrive and invade and that this point, they really didn't know it was like they didn't know if it was going to become a bigger war or not. And of course, it sort of all fizzles out. My favorite quote about the quasi war with France is to John Adams is president and obviously, he was making some dubious decisions, this particular era of his presidency. He's really making some unconstitutional laws and stuff, but he went to a family member got sick, like while these things are still building up, and people are talking about whether or not France is going to invade and John Adams quote is, he said "At present, there is no more prospect of seeing the French army here than there is in heaven."

Samantha Snyder 

OH! That is a burn!

Kathryn Gehred

Oh yes. So he's basically saying calm down everyone. We do not need an army. 

Samantha Snyder 

So, these people are evil, and they won't go to heaven. Basically it's kind of how I read that.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's, it's beautiful. It's like beautiful. That's my my brief, very vague introduction to the Quasi War with France if you are confused as to why Nellie wants to put a giant mustache on and go out into the fight.

Samantha Snyder 

Right yeah, and with her with her merry band of knights.

Kathryn Gehred 

The ladies put their black dresses on 

Samantha Snyder 

Get the plumes of feathers I can only imagine like and just thinking of them riding down like the street in Alexandria though George Washington Memorial Parkway, which was one of the roads that lead that eventually was created, but imagine them riding down that like and then riding into DC on their horses.

Kathryn Gehred 

I'm just picturing her like at Mount Vernon as George Washington is Commander in Chief again just like taking and she talks about the song that Elizabeth said to her that she says is patriotic. Do you know what that song is?

Samantha Snyder 

No. I've, I've wondered I was kind of trying to see what I could figure I don't know. I wish I did. I have a couple of Nellies like those music books, the compilations that they put together for Mount Vernon awhile ago, I should look and see if if, if there's a song in there that matches from that period.

Kathryn Gehred 

I am full as patriotic as you can be Bet and to speak truth and becoming an outrageous politician perfectly federal to lead the head.

Samantha Snyder 

So good.

Kathryn Gehred

I get asked a lot about whether or not Martha Washington was a political person, and she says that she is not. But this letter makes me think that they all were.

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, deep down Martha probably was too. Although, I'm imagining Nellie being like teach me to watch her to teach me how to be Commander in Chief.

Kathryn Gehred

He would play along.

Samantha Snyder 

He'd loaned her a coat. But Charles Carroll would not be her aid de camp. No way.

Kathryn Gehred 

She is not impressed.

Samantha Snyder 

No, this letter also made me laugh thinking of Nelly dispelling her own engagement rumors and Elizabeth Bordley because they both had claimed in a previous letter that they would be spinsters for life. That was their thing. That was what they were going to do. So, I'm like of course they're still like no, no. No man is good enough for us. Sadly, neither of them stay spinsters but let's hope they were good marriages.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, be about Lawrence Lewis is just sitting in the back. 

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, just like sitting there like, okay. And I have to imagine what Elizabeth Bordley's reaction was to all this what really thinks about these letters. While Nellies letters are so awesome, and so dramatic, and like you can tell and like she's always like thanking her for information from Philadelphia, but it's always so big, while Elizabeth Bordley saved these letters of Nellie's. Nellie did not save Elizabeth Bordley's letters. Oh, for the most part, this is very one sided, which is very sad. So, I have to imagine was Elizabeth Bordley as dramatic as Nelly was?

Kathryn Gehred

I wish I knew.

Samantha Snyder 

So, if anybody out there somehow has Elizabeth Bordley letters, let us know.

Kathryn Gehred 

She says at the beginning she's like, write me as many letters as you want, I won't always be able to respond to them. But, like with that, like knowledge that now you didn't save her letters. It's sort of like she's leaving her unread.

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, exactly. I know. She's like, just because I don't respond to all that doesn't mean I don't love you like that's basically what she's saying. She's like, but I'm too busy planning our attack.

Kathryn Gehred 

I like her a little bit about how she dances, she almost lamed herself dancing. 

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, I will say do she actually I think it's Charles Carroll that she dance six dances with at a ball at the Union Tapper and I believe in DC. So, kind of wonder, was that where it all began? Very much like today's celebrities. 

Kathryn Gehred 

They were seen together once in public and now rumor mills.

Samantha Snyder 

Then, then and that's I wonder and is it what does she say the mischevious person or the wiseacre.

Kathryn Gehred

Wiseacre.

Samantha Snyder 

Do you think who the Wiseacre is who lately left Mount Vernon makes you think now with you providing that context of George Washington Parke Custis is and like maybe he is the Wiseacre that's gonna be like your

Kathryn Gehred 

George, George Wiseacre Parke Custis. And, she mentioned she mentioned her sister she says Sister Peter, Sister Law. So, that's her sister Elizabeth Parke Custis Law, and his little daughter Eliza, who I think is still pretty young at this point.

Samantha Snyder 

I think so yeah. And they go to and, oh, and the city she references she says they're in the city that's Washington City, I guess, I should have I guess that is good context for people people probably know that but but it's Washington City are now we think of Washington, D.C.

Kathryn Gehred 

D.C. I'm obviously I'm always tripping over myself because they call it the Federal City. But I want people to know it's Washington DC that they're talking about.

Samantha Snyder 

Even though, but what's so interesting about DC versus Philadelphia and stuff, is that there was such a difference then if DC was not, was no Philadelphia at that point like, and it's, it's so interesting to see all of the different letters all throughout kind of the first first few years of the nineteenth century where everybody's going back to Philadelphia when when Congress is out of session or whatever, they all leave, because they're like, 'We don't want to be here.' Because there's events and stuff. There's balls and things, but it's no, it's not Philly. But Nellie was making do.

Kathryn Gehred 

If there was a dance, she was at it. Apparently. 

Samantha Snyder 

She was at it, and she was dancing. Yeah, unless she's lamed herself.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's a little bit of like, 'Oh, everyone was asking me to dance.' 

Samantha Snyder 

Oh, I danced so hard. I danced with so many people.

Kathryn Gehred 

I'm so happy to retire to Mount Vernon.

Samantha Snyder 

Girl sing my patriotic songs, who just imagine her singing it from the piazza singing it to the party. Trying to think of anything else good in here to unpack.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's so long, but really, it's just covering like three things.

Samantha Snyder 

And this has been one of her longer letters too like she writes long letters but this one.

Kathryn Gehred 

She says she copied it. So, that means like she had a draft and then she rewrote it and she's like now this is all gold stated.

Samantha Snyder 

I copied some of it some like was her original letter which was shorter or that or was it longer? Some of it but at one point had even more description. What they would look like when they rode out on their horses, and what that how they would battle

Kathryn Gehred 

It's just such a good alright 19 year-olds gossiping and having fun.

Samantha Snyder 

Yes, exactly. And just doing it with 18th century language instead of how we would talk now but yet yeah, it's all so similar. That's what I just always that's I find letters of like the younger like teenagers or the younger people just so interesting and like sibling dynamics too are so like the same no matter what century it is. Siblings will be siblings.

Kathryn Gehred 

Before we end the episode, we wanted to make sure that we mentioned our colleague Cassandra Good is writing a book about the Custis family, so you can learn more about these colorful characters and their lives. I'm so looking forward to it. 

Samantha Snyder 

So looking forward to it from, from both the librarian standpoint, and that I will hand it out to everybody just like the Martha Papers I've been so excited, but also from a general ,like genuine interest and skill and you know, like it helps my research all of it. But we I'm so excited. It will be such a such a good piece of scholarship to add to the library.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much. This was super fun Samantha. I'm so glad that you sent me this letter. I was cackling while reading it.

Samantha Snyder 

You're very welcome. I was also cackling while reading it so and I immediately was like, okay, a podcast episode needs to happen.

Kathryn Gehred 

So again, keep your eyes peeled for Women in George Washington's World. I can't wait to read your chapter on Elizabeth Willing Powel. I'm very excited. And hopefully we'll have you back very soon. 

Samantha Snyder 

Yeah, I hope to be back soon.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much. As for my listeners, I will put links to some of these other letters that I've been linking to in the show notes and all sorts of things. Maybe we'll find the patriotic song, who knows. But until then, thank you very much. I am as ever your most obedient and humble servant.