Episode 11 - Gingerbread Such As Edy Makes

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 11: "Gingerbread Such As Edy Makes"
Published on November 11, 2020

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Anna Berkes. She is a research librarian at the Jefferson library, a editor of the Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia, and a frequent debunker of spurious Thomas Jefferson quotations. You may have seen Anna on the news, talking about various bad Thomas Jefferson quotes. So Hi, Anna. 

Anna Berkes

Hi, how are you?

Kathryn Gehred

Good. So could you tell me a little bit about what you do as a research librarian at the Jefferson library?

Anna Berkes

Yeah, well, I do a little bit of everything. Because it's a small library, there's only three librarians. So, I do mostly sort of public facing things. So, I answer reference questions. And those come from members of the public and also Monticello staff, sometimes I help them out with whatever they're working on. I buy books for the library, which is really important. I also do some book repair, which is my new sort of thing that I have. It's a skill that I've been trying to develop. What else? I do, I work on the Encyclopedia, and I also do anything that needs done with the library portion of the Monticello website that covers the main things. And then there's all those sorts of, you know, other duties as assigned kind of stuff during copier jams, although not so many these days.

Kathryn Gehred 

So what got you started, I remember for a while you were sort of the go to person to prove whether it quote actually came from Thomas Jefferson, or whether it was a spurious quote? Do you remember like, how that how you got that reputation? And what got you interested in that?

Anna Berkes

Well, I've always been very interested in telling people that they're wrong. So, I think that was the aspect of my personality that I'm not proud of. It's not my most attractive trait, that that sort of question really appealed to that aspect of my personality. And so I got to put it into sort of a acceptable use there, right.

Kathryn Gehred

Correcting the record.

Anna Berkes

Channeling that energy in a in a productive way. If we had, so when I started, I had one predecessor as the research librarian at the library, and he had developed kind of a list of common spurious Jefferson quotes. And so I just kind of built on that and expanded it. And so from that list, I expanded it into like each, quote, got its own article, and I really sort of got into researching. Okay, so if Jefferson didn't write this, where did it come from? And of course, you can do some pretty impressive looking things with Google Books. So, so yeah, I really did get interested in you know, where did these quotes come from? And how did they sort of get attached to Jefferson and sort of why to I think that that always kind of interested me like, Why? Why do people think that Jefferson said this? And what? What about that sort of appeals to people's preconceptions about Jefferson maybe, or their own political ideas or leanings, there's, there's a lot going on. And it's just, it's, it's a really interesting thing to me. And so more broadly, I'm also just interested in ideas that people have about Jefferson, that are not necessarily wrong, per se, although those are also interesting. But, also just trending into more kind of like folklore. Right. And there are some stories about Jefferson that conformed to like folklore. I'm not quite sure that exact terminology. But there are sort of folklore tale types that are all codified and numbered. And, I can't remember off the top of my head who did all that work, but you can actually point to a specific folklore tale type. So, there are stories or a lot of stories about regular people, meeting Jefferson, just as he sort of out and about riding on his horse or whatever. And those are just like perfect examples of the folklore type of this motif of the king among the common people. And it's, I sort of researched it a bit and found that there was this whole codification and that these tales about Jefferson are really the same stories that have been told about Do the same types of people for thousands of years, which is just really, really interesting.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, that's super cool. Um, for the Letter This week, I asked Anna because she works pretty closely with some of the folks from the Jefferson retirement series. And I know that she's been very close with a lot of the family letters if there's anything that she wanted to discuss. And, so we've come up with an Ellen Wayles Randolph Coolidge letter to her mother, Martha Jefferson Randolph, and I'll go ahead and set up the context a little bit for this one. So, we've done an Ellen letter before, so you're familiar if you my longtime listeners will be familiar with Ellen Wayles Randolph Coolidge. As one of Thomas Jefferson's granddaughters she's sometimes described as Jefferson's favorite granddaughter, at the time she's reading this letter, she's 29 years old. She had married Joseph Coolidge, who was 27 years old at this time. I didn't know before doing the research for this, that Ellen was actually older than her husband.

Anna Berkes

El scandelo.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's just so unusual. Usually, it's like seventeen year olds marrying a forty-five year old. So this is almost

Anna Berkes

Yeah. I mean, they're fairly close in age. Not. Yeah. Yeah. But still, yeah, I had noticed that too.

Kathryn Gehred 

They had just gotten married six months earlier at Monticello. And she had moved with him to Boston shortly after that. So can you tell me a little bit about? Do you know much about Joseph Coolidge?

Anna Berkes

Um, well, this is my problem being someone who answers reference questions all the time. I only know about what people have asked me about.

Kathryn Gehred

Gotcha.

Anna Berkes

So I do know, for example, that Joseph Coolidge is related to Calvin Coolidge.

Kathryn Gehred

Oh!

Anna Berkes

So that's a fun fact for everyone to put in their back pocket. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, I realized as I was doing research for this, that I just, I knew Joseph Coolidge, as the name knew he was from Boston. That was about it. So I did a little bit of research into if I could find anything more about him. And I just like moments before recording this, I found a footnote about him in a article about American merchants in the China opium trade, and this is like back when you could just write I love. I love footnotes, because sometimes you just have like little interesting gems of information in there. So this footnote describes him they said he was a very attractive, socially brilliant young man. He had apprenticed with Robert Gould Shaw, and married as once again, we get that favorite granddaughter of Thomas Jefferson. Ellen's always described as the favorite. His very considerable talents were seriously compromised, however, by a personality defect, and that's it, period. I don't know what his personality defect was.

Anna Berkes

A cliffhanger!

Kathryn Gehred 

And then they said, eventually he alienated everybody. He's split Russell Co in 1839 to form Augustine Heard company, but he encountered virtually the same problems with his new firm, and even Heard ultimately had to admit his error in admitting Joseph Coolidge to partnership. So I don't know what his personality defect was, but it was apparently breaking up these mercantile companies.

Anna Berkes

Well, now we know.

Kathryn Gehred

Now we know something.

Anna Berkes

I remember. I think it was my colleague Andrina telling me about during that time period, after Jefferson had passed away, and they were sort of trying to auction off most of the contents of Monticello. Joseph Coolidge was kind of writing to Nicholas Triste, who was more kind of like on the ground in Virginia, and the Coolidge is, of course, are up in Boston. And Coolidge is writing these very kind of like, you know, "Do this, do that, make sure you do this," and don't forget that, you know, sort of backseat driving from from Boston in a way that apparently Nicholas was sort of long suffering. So, I sort of had that that glimpse. Maybe that's his personality defect.

Kathryn Gehred

He was bossy. bossy.

Anna Berkes

I don't know if that would be seen as a personality defect and a man in nineteenth century in a commercial company. I'd Yeah, good. Yeah. So I don't know.

Kathryn Gehred 

All right. Okay. So I got a little bit sidetracked there context of the letter. This letter was written from Boston, November 20 1825, about six months after she and Joseph got married. So Ellen had a longer single girlhood than a lot of women at her time. She was sort of a Belle and flirtatious and going to all these balls for a very long time, but that has now suddenly come to an end. And you can get a little bit of a melancholy vibe in this letter about that, and this letter is also written very shortly after all of her belongings. So when Ellen moved up to Boston, almost all of her sorts of things that she had packed with her to bring with her were going to be sent by ship, and it was in the ship called the Brig Washington and the ship actually sank. And she lost almost everything that she had intended to bring with her for Monticello. So, she had purposely packed things that had like a sentimental attachment to Monticello, and a lot of them are lost. So, this is something that as a tour guide, we talked about this in our tours, because it's just one of those sort of you feel for Ellen having lost all of these things, but so this letter is written right after that's happened, and she's found out about it. So, she's still sort of adjusting. She's lived in Virginia for a very long time. She's very close with her family, this huge family and now all of a sudden she's in a different state with completely different people and separated from her family who she was very close with. So, it's an interesting it's a different Ellen from some of the earlier younger Ellen letters that we've been encountering. Thomas Jefferson is 82 years old. He's still alive in 1825. And the family is in a huge amount of debt at this point. Yes. Anything anything I left out important that you wanted to add there in?

Anna Berkes

No, I think you got it all.

Kathryn Gehred 

All right. So I'm gonna read the letter and this is another long letter. So we're gonna break it up sort of at various points and discuss it as we go along.

"Ellen Wayles Randolph Coolidge to Martha Jefferson Randolph, Boston, November 20 1825. 

Mary’s letter of Nov. 10. arrived only yesterday, my dearest mother, when I had been nearly a fortnight without hearing from home, except through a letter to Mr Hilliard from Grandpapa, which, letting me know that all was well, prevented me from the hysterical feelings this unusual silence was likely to have produced. I am grieved to the heart to perceive the tone of melancholy which pervades all I receive from the girls, & my fears sometimes lead me to imagine that they do not tell me the worst, and that the affairs of the family are declining more rapidly than ever. when I look round upon these nabobs, one year of whose incomes, taken separately, would restore tranquility to my dearest friends, & lighten brighten the hopes of so many loved ones, I sigh over the unequal distribution of the gifts of fortune, until the recollection that these very persons have made themselves what they are, & risen superior to all the obstacles which poverty & obscurity & original insignificance could accumulate in their paths, has in turn given birth to the hope that the younger branches of my family may one day achieve the fortunes to which they were born although it has been since snatched from them. for those, who from sex or age are condemned to a passive endurance of whatever may happen, I cannot help hoping that better brighter days are in store, & I believe there is something in the very air of New England which produces or increases a religious tendency in the mind, for I feel a stronger confidence in the doctrine of an immediate providence, & greater trust in the it’s interference with the affairs of men, than, I think, I used to feel. perhaps you will infer from this that I am satisfied with & grateful for my own lot; indeed I am far from being dissatisfied with it, I have much to make me happy in the character & conduct of my husband & the affection which subsists between us, in the kindness of his friends, & the comforts of my situation, which although it might be more splendid, would not, [. . .] perhaps, for that, be happier than it is at present. if things only continue as they are & no change for the worse should take place, I should think it unreasonable to ask for more than I have except on the one point of an easier intercourse with my family. still, such is the influence of my particular dispositions & habits, that I cannot feel secure for myself even when I am hoping most for my friends, & that the superstitious dread of a sort of planetary influence still infects the streams of my thoughts, although I have strength enough power to prevent it from disturbing the current, & rendering it turbid with it’s own dark & heavy flow.

Joseph is naturally sanguine, & I strive constantly to elevate my own spirit to the height of his, rather than make any attempt to depress his to mine, except where I think it necessary to check his too liberal temper & aid him to correct his expensive tastes & habits."

So to break there for a minute, maybe he's too liberal temper, and 

Anna Berkes

Maybe that's his character flaw?

Kathryn Gehred 

His personality defect? Who knows? I don't know.

Anna Berkes

I'm looking for it everywhere.

Kathryn Gehred 

So what's your take of this first part of the letter?

Anna Berkes

Yeah, I think there's probably a lot going on there. You know, she's trying to sort of put on a brave face for her mother. And she does go on a bit, doesn't she? Yeah, I think that was all like one sentence, maybe? That whole first paragraph? Lots of ampersands. I think, you know, you, you often ask, what, what is relatable about these letters. And I think that everyone can relate to being far from home. And even though it's still the same country. Even so my sister lives in Massachusetts, near Boston, and even today, it just feels like a very different place in Virginia.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think that her line about "there's something in the very air of New England which produces or increases a religious tendency in the mind" is an interesting so sort of culture?

Anna Berkes

I don't know if it's more of the people than the air. Possibly. But sure. Yeah. But yeah, and it's it's hard to know exactly what what she's referring to there. But, and then the planetary influences thing was was an interesting comment. And I did do a little light googling on that point as well. And there, there was, you know, hundreds of years before she was alive. It was fashionable, I think, in medicine to attribute conditions to the movement of the planets. But that sort of surprises me if that's what she's referring to. Right? Because that seems like, you know, by Jefferson's day, and TJ would have had the sort of latest medical theories at his disposal in his libraries. I think that would have been relatively out of fashion, and certainly not, not thought of as very scientific. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, maybe maybe something about it appealed to her. Or maybe I'm totally wrong about what she's referring to.

Kathryn Gehred 

Right. I wasn't sure about that. I wasn't sure if she was talking about like, astrology

Anna Berkes

Definitely seems like it's what we would now call pseudoscience. It's interesting that she threw that in there.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. And it made me wonder if she was actually just like, because she says it's something about her own nature that even though things seem fine, she's just not happy that it just, it just sounds to me sort of like relatable sort of, she's going through a depression, like, obviously, back then there wouldn't be any sort of clinical depression, understanding or treatment or anything like that. But she's definitely down and says it's something about her personality, makes her a bit more pessimistic about things, which I haven't seen in her other letters, where she's always been very cheery. So this is a different side of Ellen that I've seen. And she does mention the money. I think her little bit about just seeing all these "nabob's with all of their money" that if they could just give one year of their income to her family, it would help them out so much. It's so funny, because she's, she's so close to saying something like that there isn't, you know, a meritocracy, right? She's like, really close. And then she just in a one long sentence, totally backtracks. And it's like,

Anna Berkes

She backs away from it. Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred 

They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

Anna Berkes

You know, as if they every single one of them had been born, you know, in a barnyard somewhere and didn't have any, which I'm sure it's totally true. And every single case.

Kathryn Gehred 

Absolutely. Yeah, and, and then a little bit, I do think what she says "those from sex or age are condemned to a passive endurance of whatever may happen" is interesting for her to say that because it because as a woman, she can't pull herself up by her bootstraps. And somebody like Ellen wouldn't be somebody that would say that needs to change. But she is saying this, it's kind of a tragic situation to find yourself in. So I think she's sort of reaching out to her mom a little bit about that.

Anna Berkes

Yeah, well, and I'm sort of thinking about this in the context of knowing sort of what, what happens later. And that, you know, they're all her family is already struggling financially. You mentioned it at this point in time, but you know, it gets worse and Ellen's kind of branch of the family. They're the ones who later in the nineteenth century, they're the ones with the money, you know, and all the the her a lot of the descendants of her, her other siblings, you know, stayed in the south and did not fare well. So that sometimes people ask me, How did all of these Jefferson documents end up at Massachusetts Historical Society, and that's why because, you know, the Ellen Ellen Coolidge's descendants, they were the ones who had money in means, and they discovered a lot of documents that their southern cousins had, you know, I think literally moldering away and attics and stuff, and they just didn't have the money, or the wherewithal to care for them properly, and I'm not sure if they purchased them, or if they just worked out an arrangement where they took them. But that's how they they got a lot of stuff, which they then deposited at the Massachusetts Historical Society, but there is this kind of divergence of circumstance, financial circumstances and a family and so that's interesting that sort of Ellen's musing on this in her letter here.

Kathryn Gehred 

Alright, so I'm gonna go into the next section of the letter.

"I do not like to say any thing of the loss of the brig Washington, with all my little treasure of long cherished relicks, memorials of past times & past pleasures, connected in my imagination with my best affections & fondest recollections, from childhood up through youth & womanhood, to the period when every woman may be said to begin life anew & to be [. . .]ected with former times chiefly through the mediums of those affections & recollections. I had some fe almost a series of small tokens of the different scenes through which I have passed from my earliest recollections memory of events to the era of my marriage; tokens having the power to conjure up thoughts which, to use one of Moore’s comparisons, were to those scenes what the otto of rose is to the flower, a perpetual mememto, [. . .] of the sweets & the loveliness that have ceased to exist under any other form. but these companions in the past fortunately for me, for the memory of the past lives in the heart independent of all outward signs, & I shall not think the less of times gone by, & the affections & enjoyment of those times, for having lost the little records which like the knots in a Peruvian quipos, were mentally connected with the most interesting feelings & events of my life."

I just want to say she said, "I do not like to say anything"

I do not like to say any thing of the loss of the brig Washington, with all my little treasure of long cherished relicks, memorials of past times & past pleasures, connected in my imagination with my best affections & fondest recollections, from childhood up through youth & womanhood, to the period when every woman may be said to begin life anew & to be [. . .]ected with former times chiefly through the mediums of those affections & recollections. I had some fe almost a series of small tokens of the different scenes through which I have passed from my earliest recollections memory of events to the era of my marriage; tokens having the power to conjure up thoughts which, to use one of Moore’s comparisons, were to those scenes what the otto of rose is to the flower, a perpetual mememto, [. . .] of the sweets & the loveliness that have ceased to exist under any other form. but these companions in the past fortunately for me, for the memory of the past lives in the heart independent of all outward signs, & I shall not think the less of times gone by, & the affections & enjoyment of those times, for having lost the little records which like the knots in a Peruvian quipos, were mentally connected with the most interesting feelings & events of my life. I am very very glad that the D. Anville & the Paraclete at least are safe, the girls must keep the first as long as it can be [. . .] at all useful, I do not require it at all, & will only call it mine for the sake of auld lang syne, the little drawing I wish to have by the first perfectly safe opportunity. was the crayon head done by Aaron Vail lost with the rest?—Mary speaks also among other things of that infamous letter written by Browere. I have rarely felt such indignation as upon the sight of it, but I am very glad to have it in my power to contradict his falsehoods at least amongst my immediate acquaintance. they have however, I suspect, gone the circle of the Union, & have been read by all who read the newspapers at all.

Anna Berkes

And then she does.

Kathryn Gehred

She writes that whole thing. Anyway, she doesn't like to say anything.

"I am very very glad that the D. Anshville & the Paraclete at least are safe, the girls must keep the first as long as it can be [. . .] at all useful, I do not require it at all, & will only call it mine for the sake of auld lang syne, the little drawing I wish to have by the first perfectly safe opportunity. was the crayon head done by Aaron Vail lost with the rest?—Mary speaks also among other things of that infamous letter written by Browere. I have rarely felt such indignation as upon the sight of it, but I am very glad to have it in my power to contradict his falsehoods at least amongst my immediate acquaintance. they have however, I suspect, gone the circle of the Union, & have been read by all who read the newspapers at all."

So that's there's a lot going on in these sections.

Anna Berkes

Yeah, about a lot. Yeah. Well, and I've just notice that she in both of these paragraphs, now she starts out saying, complaining about something, and then working saying but I don't like to complain, or she's, she's like, she really wants to unload on her mother, but she's trying to like rein it in a little bit and put a little bandaid on it.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes. Everything's terrible, but I'm fine. I'm up. But don't worry,

Anna Berkes

Don't worry. Yeah, there's a lot of interesting and I also find her miss her little misspellings, kind of adorable "Momento."

Kathryn Gehred 

"Momento." And well, I was I was impressed that she brought up knots in a Peruvian quipos.

Anna Berkes

Yeah, that's a really interesting, I mean, how many other you know, young women in her, her social class and her time period would know what quipos was?

Kathryn Gehred 

Right? So what what what is the quipos appeal? Elucidate?

Anna Berkes

It's a record keeping device that was used by the Incas. I believe?

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, it's it's, it's a, it's a recording involved with knots.

Anna Berkes

Knots yes, yeah. But I did a quick check in and there were at least half a dozen books in her grandfather's library that may have that were about either Peru specifically, or more generally, South America that she could have learned about Peruvian quipos, and but I just find that a really interesting and amazing reference, which really just speaks to how much Thomas Jefferson's library was not just his. It really influenced his children and grandchildren too.

Kathryn Gehred 

I did want to quick mention that she mentioned the Crayon Head drawn by Aaron Vail. So in the last letter that I covered in a podcast that about Ellen was shortly after she had met the Vails, and she's very mean about them. But he or she is, but then everybody always describes him as good friends. So, I do think that this is some more evidence that they eventually after a bad first impression, she changed her mind and became friends with them, and she was really asking after the crayon head. Now, the little bit at the end, where she talks about the infamous letter written by Brouwer I was very excited to do

Anna Berkes

Oh boy. This is very juicy. Brouwer episode.

Kathryn Gehred 

This is something that I used to try to talk about on tours, but it never really worked. And it's something that would, whenever I try to tell this is an anecdote nobody believes that it happened. But Thomas Jefferson, yeah, nobody believes this one. And I'm like, no, this is very well documented. But he he had a life mask sort of taken for a bust very late in life, and something went wrong.

Anna Berkes

He avoided it.

Kathryn Gehred

So Brouwer was the artist who made this life mask of Thomas Jefferson, and I have, I'm just going to read some takes on what happened because Thomas Jefferson wrote very shortly after the whole event took place, he said "I was taken in by Brouwer, where he said his operation would be of about 20 minutes and less than pleasant than oodon's method. I submitted therefore without inquiry, but it was a bold experiment on his part on the health of an octogenarian worn down by sickness as well as age. Successive coats of thin grout plastered on the naked head and kept there an hour would have been a severe trail of a young inhale person, he suffered the plaster also to get so dry that separation became difficult and even dangerous. He was obliged to use freely the mallet and chisel to break it into pieces and get off a piece at the time. These lumps of the mallet would have been sensible almost to a loggerhead the family became alarmed, and he confused till I was quite exhausted, and there became a real danger that the ears would separate from the head sooner than the plaster. I now bid adieu forever to busts and even portraits." So that's Thomas Jefferson in October 1825 writing to James Madison about this event.

Anna Berkes

Oh boy, can you imagine the scene? For poor Brouwer, I'm kind of feel bad for him, actually, you know, he's he's sort of gotten in over his head. Sounds like.

Kathryn Gehred 

You're malloting at Thomas Jefferson's head. It's not working.

Anna Berkes

It's getting more and more frantic. It's not working. It's not going well, and the families pounding on the door, like what are you doing to grandpa? God, the poor guy. And it sounds like your teacher was not having a fun time either. Does sound quite painful.

Kathryn Gehred 

You know, he's sort of down. He's making little jokes about it, but he's clearly mad. Yeah, I love that line about the bold experiment on his part on the health of an octogenarian. 

Kathryn Gehred 

That was funny. And so and so this happens. Brouwer publishes in the newspapers a letter saying that everything had been a massive success specifically about Thomas Jefferson. It was a massive success, but you may hear something because and hear the quote starts. "Just as I was removing the material from the head and shoulders of the venerable patriot, four ladies came into the room accompanied by a gentleman and troubled me with their exclamations and surmises, and thereby retarded my progress considerably. The good old man stood like a hero, and you know, it is no trifle, yet could not altogether overcome the sensation of feeling faint. Finding the ladies did not retire at my request, I determined that they should leave me alone to my own operations and spoke rather peremptorily and always as it should be a perfect model. I should do wrong to myself Did I not say that owing to the intrusion of the ladies, I had to pull the old gentleman's ears a little. So Brouwer blames all of this on the granddaughters immediately.

Anna Berkes

That's so interesting how he described this whole episode,

Kathryn Gehred 

He pulled the old man's ears a little where it's just a little.

Anna Berkes

He almost tore them off.

Kathryn Gehred 

And so, so, just to imagine being one of Thomas Jefferson's granddaughters, and reading this, particularly

Anna Berkes

Oh man!

Kathryn Gehred

Mary ended it so this is one of Ellen sisters, Mary, she was furious. And so she wrote in her letter "That he should have dared to just upon the subject of the sufferings that he made grandpa undergo was bad enough, without the additional falsehood that we did not treat his attempt with the indignation it deserved. He would also make it appear that our alarm and grandpa's danger was the consequence and not the cause of our entering the room. when we did that we were quite unconscious of what was going on, till the noise made by the servants hurrying backwards and forwards for wine and water, etc. First excited our apprehensions, and though I was the first to go in, it was not until I was terrified by hearing the sound of groans as I stood at the door, and Mr. Brouwer himself was calling out for spirits when, as I entered, another trait of his accuracy is his converting permission to copy a bust into a gift of it. Luckily, it has not yet left the house and will not be sent until he is set right in that particular" She's still mad. She's not even like finishing her sentences.

Anna Berkes

Yeah, yeah. Well, I that's very understandable.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, from Mary's perspective, they heard the servants slaves coming in to get spirits and they're like, what's going on? And she went to see what was going on.

Anna Berkes

Like, there was a kerfuffle.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes, and could hear Jefferson struggling and so then she runs in to help. And then apparently, he shouted at them.

Anna Berkes

Sounds like quite a scene.

Kathryn Gehred 

I can just see Ellen going to all these different Boston social events, and anybody mentions that letters and share her just correcting the record is tricky. Okay, so there's that section, and then we'll finish up. Got one more section of the letter.

Anna Berkes

And then the PostScript

Kathryn Gehred

And then the postscript. Yes, it's a very important postscript for this one. Okay.

"Winter is coming upon us here; the thermometer yesterday stood it 18º above zero, & to day there have been threats of snow. I am having a wadded pelisse & cloak made to protect me from the ill effects of the outward air. within doors I am quite comfortable as our house is perfectly well-built & warm. Mrs Derby called to see me this morning in spite of the blustering weather, partly, I believe, to inquire after my health, & partly, I suspect, to be the first to give me the news of Mrs Robert Patterson’s marriage with the Marquis of Wellesley by which she becomes Vice Queen of Ireland—a splendid destiny for a female adventurer. You will smile to hear that M[rs] Ritchie & myself are making something like advances to an intimacy, [. . .] all our old antipathies. I always did justice to her talents & distinguished manners, and now but I am beginning to think that my judgment of her character was not so fair. she is certainly assuredly altered much for the better; she is to a certain degree disappointed in the brilliant hopes of her youth, & is improved by the change in her situation from the glowing prospects of bellehood to the sober realities of married life, with a husband, not so wealthy as was at first believed, & constrained by the nature of his property, West India plantations, to be absent a great deal from home, leaving her in a sort of widowhood the more distressing as she is really attached to him, & makes a most excellent wife. she is an uncommonly fine woman, & there is something so ‘distingué’ in her air & manners, such a stamp of superiority in all she does & says, that it is impossible not to admire her.

I am writing by candle-light & of course with great suffering to my eyes, adieu then, dearest mother, & believe me, with all the deep devoted feeling of which you know me capable your own grateful fondly attached daughter. Ellen."

Then some postscripts:

"Love to all my dear ones from Grandpapa to my darlings Septimia & George; dear children, how often & tenderly I think of them!

Do my neighbours never inquire after me?

I wish to tax each of the girls the writing of an occasional receipt for me on a small slip of paper which can be put in a letter. those I am most in need of are 1st soup. 2. vermicelli soup. 3. coffee. 4. muffins. 5. a charlotte. 6. gingerbread such as Edy makes. 7. rice cakes for breakfast. 8. drop biscuit. & several others which I cannot call to mind. I will send the music paper by the piano. there are two or three pieces which I am very anxious for. particularly Fisher’s minuet & Auld lang syne.

I hope Virginia is well by this time, I conclude it is one of her old attacks she has had, & hope the next post will bring me news of her recovery in her own hand."

Anna Berkes

It just occurred to me that she's mentioned Old Lang Zine twice in this letter.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes. Just interesting.  

Anna Berkes

Just pointing out.

Kathryn Gehred 

A little she's she's nostalgic in this one I think.

Anna Berkes

Appropriately symbolic. Yeah. That the Marquess of Wellesley whole whole situation, I, I Wikipedia that, that. Mrs. Patterson, fascinating if you like if you're into this sort of sort of like royal nobility watching kind of I mean, this lady's life was fascinating, very fancy people.

Kathryn Gehred 

Later, she becomes Lady of the Bed Chamber to the Queen of England.

Anna Berkes

Yeah. Yeah. What a life. I wonder if memoirs or something? Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred 

So I think it's funny that Ellen's talking about the neighbor coming to visit, maybe to see how she was, but mostly to talk about this.

Anna Berkes

Oh, why wouldn't you? Totally, this would be huge news.

Kathryn Gehred 

As far as the Mrs. Ricci for the next section? I don't know, I haven't I wasn't able to find her. I think it's interesting that Ellen is admitting that she had a bad first impression of somebody and then has been changed her mind. So, maybe that is more evidence of some of the snarky or things she says in other letters. She might later take back.

Anna Berkes

Oh, give her credit for yeah, basically, you know, being willing to revise her opinion and say so. So very big of her.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. I feel like this description was really compelling to me of thinking about somebody who's married to somebody who's not as wealthy as she first believed, and then that he's gone all the time. She's calling that a type of widowhood, I think is interesting.

Anna Berkes

Maybe she's just so it's more of a case of being sort of magnanimous in her victory, sort of. Because like Ellen is like, set as far as she knows right now. And this this poor lady, oh, you know, we all she and she didn't like her before. Or she said some nasty things about her. And then this lady, but now it's clear that you know, she isn't doing so well. So now Elon can feel superior and be kind of magnanimous

Kathryn Gehred 

That is a  compelling take such a stamp of superiority now that one's kind of in the superior position. But this postscript was actually what first made you think of this letter of

Anna Berkes

Yeah, this is really what I wanted to talk about.

Kathryn Gehred 

But as always, whenever you look at the letter, there's always more interesting things in there.

Anna Berkes

Sure. Sure. You know, Ellen wrote the letter. So we have to talk about Ellen, of course. But, but yeah, so, so the reason that I knew about this letter was this reference to Edie, who is Edith Fossett, who was the chef at Monticello, basically, Jefferson's entire retirement period. So around 1809, and I'm a little fuzzy on when she kind of took over from Peter Hemings, but 1809 Until Jefferson's death, and I just really, Edith Fossett is someone who I think, just doesn't get nearly as much interest or credit. She was just quietly an amazing chef for however many years that was, she and her I think future sister in law, Francis Hearn, were sent to Washington in 1802 Or 1803, early, early in Jefferson's presidency, I believe, to train under the French chef, there Enre Jouillion. So, they were trained not in France, but by a French chef, and worked in in Washington, and then so when when Jefferson returns to Monticello, Edith Fossett becomes the chef at Monticello. And she does that, until 1826, and what I find really interesting is that, so she had 10 children with her husband, Joseph Fossett. And, two of her sons actually had a catering business, when they eventually gained their freedom and moved to Ohio. And I just find that so interesting that they're kind of they kind of carried on her. She must, they must have learned, hopefully, we don't know exactly, but we can only imagine that they must have learned some of their skills. Yeah, recipes, I'm sure from from their mother, but so one thing I think, is really important to point out that all so we don't have any menus. People always asking for menus from from Washington and Monticello, we don't have menus per se. But we do have a lot of descriptions of food, especially by visitors. Because it's you know, people who live there, everyday are not going to be constantly describing the food if people who who are visiting and and find it remarkable, or they want to tell everyone about their experience visiting, visiting the great man in every little detail about it. So, we have a lot of descriptions of food that was cooked there, and that that famous quote about "half Virginia and half French in good taste and abundance." Yeah, they're talking about Edith Fossett's cooking. So I mean, I think that's, that's a connection that that people don't always make. And I just I, whenever I get a chance, I'd like to talk about Edith faucet, because I just think she doesn't get enough attention.

Kathryn Gehred 

That's awesome. And, like Ellen specifies here that it's Gingerbread, such as Edie makes. So it's not just any Gingerbread, it's Edie's Gingerbread.

Anna Berkes

Right. And, and I do sorry, this this was sort of my main point that I forgot to make. As I do, so we have two/four recipes attributed to James Hemings. There are a few descriptions of things that Peter Hemings made, but there are no recipes attributed to Edith Fossett. And that kind of possibly be true that she I mean, she was cooking for decades, she most assuredly had recipes. This is the only reference that I have found, and that's not to say that there couldn't be more, I just haven't found them. This is the only reference I know of to a specific dish. So, when I saw this, I was like, 'oh my gosh.' So, as far as actually finding this recipe in the family manuscripts, that unfortunately, has been elusive. There's a lot of different sources that it could be. So, I really don't know if that's either Fossett's gingerbread recipe or not, and the the enclosure to this letter, or the the response to this letter. I don't think we have that either.

Kathryn Gehred 

And so what about this letter do you think is really relatable to a modern audience?

Anna Berkes

That feeling of homesickness? Certainly, and also that thing that Ellen is doing, where she really wants to complain, and tell someone about her problems? But, she also doesn't, you know, she's also trying to put a good face on it. I think that's also very relatable especially with, you know, a parent that that you might be close to where you're like, oh, you know, I, but, but really I'm okay. That's very recognizable to to to many people.

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, thank you so much for joining me.

Anna Berkes

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been fun.

Kathryn Gehred 

Just a lovely conversation. Yeah, thank you. And, to all my listeners, I will have the text of the letter as well as show notes from some of the sources that I looked up as always with the in the show notes of the episode. And, thank you very much for listening and I'm as ever, your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.