Episode 17 - Oh Genie Who Directs The Hands Of Mortals!

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 17: "Oh Genie Who Directs The Hands Of Mortals!"
Published on February 2, 2021

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. Today I am very excited to be joined by guests that you might remember from Episode 2 "A Presidential Blunder." Samantha Snyder is here. Samantha is the reference librarian at the Fred W. Smith National Library for the study of George Washington at Mount Vernon. And she is an expert on the correspondence and life of Elizabeth Willing Powell. So, hi, Samantha!

Samantha Snyder

Hi, it's so nice to be back again. I know we were talking about how long it's been since that second episode. So much has happened. So, I'm excited to be back.

Kathryn Gehred 

Since the last time you're on the podcast, what have you been up to?

Samantha Snyder

Well, let's see. So 2020, as we know, has been kind of an odd year. But overall, for me, it's been good. I think we mentioned as far as Elizabeth Powell things go. This has kind of been the year of Elizabeth Powell, for me, I've had a lot of different fun things that I've gotten to do and have been very lucky to get to. But, the most exciting thing is that we got a tentative but mostly official public publication date for the edited volume about Washington and women that's being published by University of Virginia, so that will be January 2022. And, the chapters that we referenced in Episode 2, that that will be coming out in that volume.

Kathryn Gehred 

Congratulations. That's awesome.

Samantha Snyder

Thank you. And, as far as other things I've been getting my history masters, I've been doing a lot of classwork and work work.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, for people who might have missed our first episode that talks about Elizabeth Willing Powell, could you give me and our audience a brief introduction to who she was? 

Samantha Snyder

Sure! So Elizabeth Willing Powell was a very powerful, well connected woman who lived in Philadelphia in the late eighteenth century. And, she was the leader in high society in Philadelphia. So she, she was born in the 1740s and died in 1830. So she lived a very long life, but by the 1770s and 1780s, she became this very powerful figure in society. She was very renowned for her intelligence and her political skills and advice. And, she was an incredible conversationalist. And the people who appreciate it that the most were people like George Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Rush, Ben Franklin, all these people went to her house, which was her, really like her her public stage to show off all of these skills. She had a lot of people over for salons and parties and all different things.

Kathryn Gehred 

I first heard of Elizabeth Powell with my work with the Papers of Martha Washington because they corresponded a bit and George Washington, Elizabeth Willing Powell, were very good friends, and they have some really fun correspondence back and forth. So that's actually helped me and Samantha meet.

Samantha Snyder

Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

So with the papers.

Samantha Snyder

Yep.

Kathryn Gehred

Now, this week, instead of focusing on just one letter, we're going to handle this one a little bit differently. We're going to look into excerpts from an exchange of letters between Elizabeth Willing Powell and her nephew, John Hare Powell. So this is I think, the first time we're going to be talking about John, can you tell me a little bit about John and Elizabeth's relationship with him? 

Samantha Snyder

Sure! So, I'll briefly explain who John Hare Powell was. He was born John Powell Hare. In 1786, he was Elizabeth Powell, youngest nephew of all of her 30 nieces and nephews. He was the very last one born. Yeah. So he was the youngest son of her youngest sister, Margaret Willing Hare. And Margaret Willing Hare was married to Robert Hare, who people who are fans with George Washington in the eighteenth century might recognize the name Hare from Porter. George Washington bought a lot of Porter and that was actually brewed by Robert Hare. He was the one to bring it to America. So that's kind of cool. So, that's a little connection there. But John Hare Powell, he was clearly her favorite when he was a little, a little boy. He was taken to her house to be weaned, and then by his mother, and then he came down with a scarlet fever, and Elizabeth writes about how she nursed him back to health, and he writes about it later, too. And I think they really developed a special connection after that, and she'd lost all four for her children as infants. So, I would guess that probably had a an extra, like, made her extra connected to him because he was so ill. And she Yeah, so I think that kind of started the special bond. But then, as he got older, they really developed much very much a mother/son relationship, and she was really focused on him being schooled, so he went to the University of Pennsylvania. She had him over Her health quite a bit, and then she actually why he changed his name to John Hare Powell is that she decided he would be the sole inheritor of her estate after she died. That's a whole other thing, but when Elizabeth inherited a very large estate after her husband died of the yellow fever in 1793, with no children, she's decided to make John Hare Powell, her sole inheritor, and what she did was she made the stipulation that he would have to formally change his name from John Powell Hare to John Hare Powell, which happened in 1807. A formal Act was put through in the Pennsylvania legislature. And it reminds me kind of the Washington's, and then George Washington Parke Custis and Nellie, how they kind of informally adopted them, but Elizabeth took it a step further and formally adopted. So. So yeah, so they're they, they were very much mother, son.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, I think that's important context, I think, for this exchange. So this is someone who knows he's going to inherit a lot of property and somebody who knows that she's passing a lot.

Samantha Snyder

OH yes! And yeah, they, they were, they were like best friends. They were, they were really close. And, and they, this is only one of so many letters, she sends him abroad to London and then to go on a grand tour. So, this is this is from those, those many, many exchanges and he, he loved her and they they really get along, and they seem to have a lot in common, including being very dramatic.

Kathryn Gehred 

Alright, that's fantastic. Is there any other, okay, so this letter is written in 1809? April 6, through 17 to 1809. Is there any other necessary context that you think between of what's going on in their lives at the time of this letter?

Samantha Snyder

Well, he's he's abroad in London, he, he has been there, about seven months, was soon is going to become this is actually necessary context. As you think about it. He's about to become the secretary of the location under William Pickney, who was the British minister. It's a whole it's, that was something where he'd be doing a lot of diplomatic work. So, he's on this tour for pleasure. But then he also gets government jobs. What's going on with Elizabeth she's been a widow now for almost 20 years, but she's really developed this super strong reputation and Philadelphia is she's very much at the point in her life where John Hare Powell looks to her as a role model.

Kathryn Gehred 

Perfect. So, if you don't mind, would you like to read the first excerpt.

Samantha Snyder

Sure.

"I find your style much improved and I wish that your writing was more legible, as it is no justice can be done to any composition of yours. I most sincerely wish that you would devote a few weeks to penmanship. I am deprived from the badness and irregularity of your writing of a great portion of pleasure I should otherwise derived from your interesting communication. Read Lord Chesterfield sentiments on the subject. He execrates a bad handwriting as ungentlemanly like and vulgar to the last degree, and then thee the most fatal due to you from the entire misapprehension of your meaning. Mr. Addison says it is either an evidence of neglected education or unpardonable affection, neither of which applies in your instance. I think it may be fairly ascribed to a too lively imagination, proceeding from your not methodizing your time when a child you wrote a very fine hand. Patty, read your writing with much difficulty, Robert, very imperfectly, and to your mother, it is algebra. Surely, whatever is worth doing is worth doing well. I will add another motive that I trust will not be indifferent to you as a gentleman and friend. I requested as a favor and as evidence of your respect and tenderness for the feelings of the friend of your infancy that you will endeavor to meet my wishes on this subject."

I love her so much.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, okay, so she's the entire section is about how bad his handwriting is.

Samantha Snyder

Yes.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Samantha Snyder

And, and I feel like we should preface this with the fact that you set himself up for this, because of the letters that he had sent her very briefly. He just briefly says in the middle of the letter "as for the badness of the writing, I expect to be abused. You will, of course employ my sister in deciphering it." So, he sets himself up for this.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so is Patti his sister or

Samantha Snyder

Oh yes, Patty is his sister, Robert is his brother, and his mother is Margaret Willing Hair.

Kathryn Gehred 

"To your mother it is algebra," is such a good line.

Samantha Snyder

You think about how women, women's education and algebra and like that they all knew. I don't know I think like looking at it from a from...

Kathryn Gehred 

It's relatable to me as somebody whose job is reading old handwriting for I can understand Elizabeth's frustration with this is the letter, it's the only way that she's going to get the communication from this person, and if the handwriting is bad, you just don't know what this person is trying to say. It can be it is like algebra. It's like, I don't know what you're trying to tell me. It's like a puzzle. So, I love the fact that he's like, I know you'll abuse me for my bad handwriting. And it sounds like okay, hold my beer.

Samantha Snyder

I will and I will do it with gusto. Yeah, my beer yeah, hold hold my hold my Madeira.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so to dig into a little bit of the details of what what exactly she says in the references, the references that she makes. So, she says read Lord Chesterfield sentiment on the subject. Now, I had not heard of Lord Chesterfield before this, so I did a little bit of research to find out who that was. So Lord Chesterfield was Philip Stanhope, the fourth Earl of Chesterfield, he was a politician and diplomat, just from England, who died in 1773. But, he was most well known and most famous for a book of letters that he had written to his son, so his daughter in law a year after he died, published 448, of the education of letters that he had written to his son to help turn him into a young gentleman and give him a good education. And so it was published as sort of like, like a guide book, like it's words of advice that everybody could learn from, or almost like a parenting guide book. And it was popular, but even like, as soon as it came out, some people were already saying it was a bad book, but it had sort of mixed reality. And one of the issues with it is, so first off, there are letters that he's writing to his illegitimate son, which I think is important, because they're all these letters that like how to be a good person, and how to choose a wife and how to like, be respectful, but it's to is the reason that he's writing letters and not like raising the child is because it's his illegitimate son. So like, how hypocritical

Samantha Snyder

Oh my God! That is incredibly hypocritical. That his daughter in law was like.

Kathryn Gehred 

And so this book was sort of was was well known, I found one quote from it about handwriting, I don't know if this is the exact section that she wants. But so this is this is an example of Chesterfield, writing about handwriting. He says, "the next thing necessary in your destination is writing correctly, elegantly, and in a good hand too in which three particulars I'm sorry to tell you that you hither to fail. Your handwriting is a very bad one, and it would make a scurvy figure in an office book of letters, and even in the ladies pocketbook."

Right? But he says, "that fault is easily cured by care, since every man who has the use of his eyes and his right hand can write whatever hand he pleases. So, anybody can write well, you just have to have your eyes in your right hand. As the correctness and elegance of your writing attention to grammar does the one, and to the best authors the other. In your letter to me of the 27th of June, ns, you omitted the date of the place so that I only conjectured from the contents that you were at Rome."

This is an example of the tone of the letters that are sort of throughout. Some of them, he's almost manipulative. There's a quote, "I shall expect perfection, or you and I shall not be very well together. I shall dissect and analyze you with a microscope."

Samantha Snyder

Ah, wow.

Kathryn Gehred

I think this is interesting. So we have we have Elizabeth Willing Powell as like a mother figure who is trying to get her nephew to write better, but she's not that mean in this like she's she's being mean, but she's not being quite that mean.

Samantha Snyder

She's being, she's being, yeah, she's being like, affectionately mean with the way their relationship is she's being Bushrod Washington uses when he talks about her teasing him "raillery" he uses, I opened myself up to her "raillery." And, I think this is a way to describe that to perfection at raillery. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, and I think that's exactly how I would describe that the style of eighteenth century education is a little bit like harsher than things that we would see today.

Samantha Snyder

Mmm, hmm. Absolutely.

Kathryn Gehred

 Yeah. So this sort of language wasn't out of place. You've heard some opinions of Lord Chesterfield, right?

Samantha Snyder

Yes, yes. Actually. Elizabeth Powell herself in in,1783, so, you know, within ten years after the book came out, her sister, Mary Byrd, who we who people may recognize, writes Elizabeth asking if Elizabeth has any reference books for her daughters, and I'm assuming two sons, because they were young, but she must mention Lord Chesterfield, because she says, she goes off about Lord Chesterfield in her letter about her sister must have mentioned that she was thinking more Chesterfield letters might be a good title for this year for her from Philadelphia to insensitive Virginia. So, she does not like Lord Chesterfield for how he talks about women, and actually, she's not alone in that. Mercy Otis Warren also is not a fan of Lord Chesterfield, for for also how he talks about women. She writes to her son in 1779, criticizing how he compares or how he talks about women and all they are or their fashion and kind of like, how, how it makes them seem that they're shunned from society and stuff and all this, all this different stuff. But mercy Otis Warren was not a fan of Lord Chesterfield either. So, these very powerful women were not fans. Elizabeth was not a fan of him more for how he focused on beauty was the only thing that mattered, and the women's mind didn't matter. So, she was very focused on the intellect, which is I'm not surprised by that because of how focused she was, but then she turns around years later and says, read it. So clearly, she read it.

Kathryn Gehred 

He was right about penmanship. He's wrong about women.

Samantha Snyder

Right about penmanship; wrong about women. I just, I like to imagine her reading it, and like with the penmanship part that you just read being like, yeah, yeah. Underlining, like, this is what I'm gonna tell him.

Kathryn Gehred 

As I was just doing my preliminary research for stuff, I found a book of orthography that that was the first before I could find the actual official Chesterfield book, I found an eighteenth century book called Orthographical Exercises, and so this is an example of eighteenth century education. So, it was it's incredible. Like, I'll, I'll try to put a link to it, or at least put a picture of it on the website when I find it. So, it's a book of educational letters, similar to Chesterfields letters, but they pull from a lot of different people. But, then the book itself misspells every word, and they spell him they spell it phonetically. So,

Samantha Snyder

Oh, my God.

Kathryn Gehred

And, so what the teacher was supposed to do, is the kid would take this letter, and they would read it out loud, so they should be able to read because they're phonetically spelled, even though everything's spelled wrong. So, they would go up to the front of the class and read the letter so that everybody would get what sort of educational benefit that content that was in the letter, and then they were supposed to go back and rewrite it with correct spelling, and that was how they taught spelling was having them read it spelled wrong first, which, to me seems wild.

Samantha Snyder

It's just so wild. That's so wild. I was looking into a little bit how they learn to, to write and some of that was they would, they would literally, it was like, everything had a theme of writing, like the business letters, there were personal letters, there were letters, there were there were templates for writing to siblings, and future husbands and wives. But, but what they would do is they would have to, they would have to at that point, I think, either know how to read or at least know how to trace the letter itself. So, it's getting implemented into their mind at the same time, which is fascinating to me. It's like they're learning these skills before they can even write or quite understand. I don't know. It's very interesting how that works like, versus do you think of today, with how we learn to write and stuff it is different in a way we're not we're not learning themed things. We're not learning how to write to our, I don't know, it's very interesting. So it's a lot less harsh.

Kathryn Gehred 

Like they weren't doing like phonics.

Samantha Snyder

No, they were doing come and read in front of the class.

Kathryn Gehred 

Eighteenth century is relatable, but then there's things that are very different and

Samantha Snyder

Yeah, yeah, and there's there's a great chapter I should mention this where I found where I found the Mercy Otis Warren thing is from Kate Haulman's book, The Politics of Fashion in Eighteenth Century America. But, there's also a great chapter in a book called The Atlantic Families with an author named Sarah Pearsall or Piersall. I don't know her, but I really liked her book. And it's Atlantic family's lives and letters in the later eighteenth century. There's a whole chapter on men, like fathers teaching their sons and uncles teaching their sons. But for me, it's really interesting because it's not to bring it back to John Hare Powell. It's not his father, his aunt. So, I think that's very interesting that we took on this role, like and so it's a testament to her I think to that she was Yeah, so anyway, but but that's a great this is a great book and a great chapter. The chapter is called "Credit In Life and Letters."

Kathryn Gehred 

Before we move on, I just want to do one there was, I found a quote from John Keats about Lord Chesterfield that I just got a big kick out of. So here's a quote from Keats,

"You must improve in your penmanship. I would endeavor to give you a facsimile of your word Thistlewood. If I were not minded, on the instant that Lord Chesterfield has done some such thing to his son. Now, I would not bathe in the same river as Lord Sea, though I had the upper hand of the stream. I am grieved that in writing and speaking, it is necessary to make use of the same particles he did."

So Keats had very strong opinions, strong opinions. So let's go into alright, so that is her letter sort of admonishing him for his handwriting, giving him some advice. She mentioned how difficult it was to read, and how it's gentlemanly to have bad handwriting. And so we do have his response. So do you want to go ahead and read his response?

Samantha Snyder

Sure. Okay.

"I have ruined four sheets upon which I in vane attempted to write less and decently than I am used to do. The horrid thoughts of moving my pen tardily on my paper, has vanished from my brain every idea, but that have not been able to execute my determination in so illegible an undertaking. I hope you will not be surprised at finding on the other page, an elegant copy of Pothooks and Hangers, as new have frightened my brain to God knows where. Such an attack I never before sustained as my patience must now and do. I am accused of being careless of acting unlike a gentleman, of being badly educated, and impardonally affected. I am not only accused but convicted by two great authorities, and sentenced without a hearing to serve two weeks under a writing master. Oh unhappy youth to have had an aunt who after three and twenty years, could not make the a gentleman Oh, just consulate aunt, who has been vain bestowed by labor lavished by money and given thy name to so degenerate a wretch who unworthy of his ancestors has disgraced his birth by badly writing. Oh, Genie who directs the hands of mortals give me courage in my endeavors and success in my execution, but to be serious might be your answer. I assure you that I have often attempted and always wished in my letters to you to write much better than I have done, but my thoughts hurry me along. And, when I write slowly, I write your stiffly. Your desire independent of your appeal to my feelings as a gentleman and as a friend on this. And as well as on all other subjects would have sufficient weight to [illegible] me to the correction of any neglect or of any faults. As to my brother, he may put on his spectacles or burn my letters, if they be so troublesome to him. If I were to write with as much care as the improvement of my hand would require, I should not send him one line where he gets ten. I have written since I left America and near 800 pages, which is written up and down would have taken me as many hours."

The end.

Kathryn Gehred 

I would just like very quickly like to point out that even when he's writing so carefully, there's still two illegible sections.

Samantha Snyder

And I have to say too, I have the benefit of living in 2020, where I have a laptop or I have a computer screen. I can zoom way in on his letters. If I was her trying to read those without any kind of magnification, I wouldn't have been able to read illegible words.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so this is this is hysterical. I love how funny he is here. He find out

Samantha Snyder

I know. When I first transcribed this, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I was like, wow.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, I want I want to point out though, his I had forgotten this when I was first doing my research that I believe so he talks about how he's gonna serve two weeks at a writing master. So he's like a grown man. He's doing a real job over legit and he's stuck. Yeah,

Samantha Snyder

Yeah, he's 23 years old. Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred 

And then I think when he says something about Pot Hooks and Hangers...

Samantha Snyder

You looked it up? I did too. It is the, it is I mean, at least what I interpreted it as, is learning how to do the specific whoops of the letters, but then also I read a second definition that it means bad handwriting. So I'm a little confused, but I initially when I was reading, I thought it meant that because it looked like a pot hook or a hanger.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, that's what I got as well. So he says, "You will not be surprised to see an elegant copy of pots hooks and hangers." So, here he's practicing his leaps. He's going back to basics.

Samantha Snyder

Which I love that, because that, again shows how people learn to write because I would not be surprised if as a little boy, he had to sit there, and do that!

Kathryn Gehred 

That was funny. I think he said it funny. I also think his feelings were a little bit hurt. But also like, also he is, he is joking about it here too.

Samantha Snyder

They seem to be really good at firing it right back and forth at each other. Like, I can only imagine what their conversations were like in person based on the way they write to each other. And how he talks about how much he's like, I know we talked about this, and I know we talked about that. So I'm really curious. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to watch them do that in person.

Kathryn Gehred 

The section that really gets me. "Oh, unhappy youth. Oh, disconsolate Aunt. Oh, genie who directs the hands of mortals."

Samantha Snyder

My favorite part, "Oh, genie who directs the hands of mortals."

Kathryn Gehred 

I do relate when he says my thoughts hurry me along. And when I write slowly, I write stiffly. I do I my handwriting has improved after doing this job, because I now know how terrible it is to try to read that handwriting, but I, if I'm just writing, as I'm thinking, ultimately, like whole words out, so I know exactly what he means.

Samantha Snyder

Same. And I'm like that with texting, I tend to be, and actually what's interesting, I was thinking about this, as I transcribed his letters, he puts a lot of things he does like a line or two at a time. And then he makes a new line and the new line, he writes how I text sometimes, people who tend to text my thoughts as they come. A key would be that type of sector to like we were saying about like things that are different and things that are similar. It's it's interesting to think of how like handwriting can be translated into typing and typos. I'm a big typo person. So, I can empathize with that, too, with the like writing too fast that I felt...

Kathryn Gehred 

But, he's kind of saying no, or he's like, I enjoy writing to you. And I always wished write much better than I have done. But my thoughts are me like, he's sort of saying, like, if you want me to write comfortably, like if you like it, then I will probably not be writing as prettily as you might like. But he's sort of saying it's like, yeah, it's because of our relationship. It's because I'm just writing as I think when I write to you that I am writing so bad. So you should be happy. Not exactly, but.

Samantha Snyder

Basically, basically, because she also will write him. So he writes, I will say to her, she should not be quite so sassy, because to her every one letter, he writes, like four or five. And he's always like, why aren't you writing to me? Why aren't you writing to me? And she just can't answer it fast enough.

Kathryn Gehred 

So that's funny. So he's, he's got a lot to say. And he likes writing, writing a lot of letters.

Samantha Snyder

He does. And he writes, like, not only is he writing to her, he writes to his sister, he writes to his best friend, he's, but but to his aunt he writes the most. And actually, there's a really interesting letter where she tries to decipher it herself. There's in pencil above different words, it's her handwriting, trying to figure out what what he's saying. I thought that I was like, Oh, my God, there's, there's two letters where she does work. And then the rest is just,

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh, I love that. That is one of those little things you only get from seeing the manuscript. That is cool.

Samantha Snyder

Exactly, exactly. And I also should say, thank you Historical Society of Pennsylvania for having all these letters.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, the section at the end. "I should not send them one line where he gets 10. I've written since I left American, your 800 pages, which if written down would have taken me as many hours." Dang.

Samantha Snyder

And the crazy thing is that he had only been in your in in Europe at that point since and London at that point since November of 1808. So, he had been there seven months.

Kathryn Gehred 

That's a lot of pages. That's a lot of pages in a very short amount of time.

Samantha Snyder

Yeah. A lot.

Kathryn Gehred

I wanted to ask this is hysterical little section. Do we know how Elizabeth responded to this?

Samantha Snyder

Sadly, we don't, which I think I mean, I guess you know, we do know how she responded in that she never addressed it. She says I received your letter of June 1, 1809. In one of her letters, after the fact, doesn't say anything. So, I think in a way, that is her response.

Kathryn Gehred

I tried it.

Samantha Snyder

Like, I tried, but I mean, she did say a couple years prior to how he had infamously, infamously bad penmanship. She could only decipher a little bit of letters, but "his communications are written in characters so infamously unintelligible," so she knew but one one thing I forgot to mention this, he talks about how he wishes that she could have a spyglass to look in on him, which I think is actually it's kind of awesome and kind of like nice for what we've all been dealing with like you and I are talking over zoom like they would have really benefited from and then she wouldn't have had to read to read all his letters. And I think it's I think it's kind of cool to think about they were already thinking about things like, you know video that we have today.

Kathryn Gehred 

I love the thought of zoom as a spyglass. That's so cute. 

Samantha Snyder

He says, I wish you had a long Spyglass that could reach across the Atlantic like, so she could see that he's telling the truth when he says he's studying, and he's he's only hanging out with reputable people, and he's met all the family that they're supposed to talk that he's supposed to meet, and then he wants a spyglass to check in on her too which I think it's also really sweet.

Kathryn Gehred 

At this point of living in our 18th century quarantine, to talk to people, it is nice to have our little as much as I have zoom fatigue. It is nice to have a little digital Spyglass. I guess the last point that I wanted to make is sometimes when I'm talking about the way education was an eighteenth century are just like people be like, 'Oh, that sounds so mean.' And, I'm like, well, education was just different back then, like this was the way people were used to being spoken to. It is kind of fun to find a response like this, where somebody's getting this very scolding letter, and then they're responding just irritated by it.

Samantha Snyder

Exactly.

Kathryn Gehred

All right. Times were different, but that was just particularly irritating. I just think it's interesting. So there's there's this letter where there's these cultural references like Lord Chesterfield that we don't get there's the pots and hangers and just the different language, but then there's just the very human close relationship with an aunt and nephew and just teasing each other.

Samantha Snyder

That's a perfect way to summarize that letter.

Kathryn Gehred 

I love that. This isn't something that people would probably quote for a lot of massive historical significance, but it just tells you so much about the relationship, and this is the part of working with these letters I love.

Samantha Snyder

Exactly. That's what I know that it's the letters that make them people. That's what I always find so interesting is like, we all have these letters that we quote a lot like the Abigail Adams "Remember the ladies," and Elizabeth Powell with her letter to George Washington about running for president again, which is an amazing letter, but it's letters like this that really makes me love, what I do, and love history and all that.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much for joining me and coming back on the podcast. It is an absolute delight.

Samantha Snyder

Thank you for having me back.

Kathryn Gehred 

For my listeners, I will put some of these books and quotes that we've been talking about in the show notes so you can check them out. And, as ever, I am your most obedient and humble servant. Thanks very much.