Episode 21 — Stuff A Child With Learning

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 21 - “Stuff A Child With Learning”
Published on April 27, 2021

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Sian Leach, who was part of my Women's History cohort at Sarah Lawrence College, and she is currently working at Calvary women's services in DC helping actual women find homes and jobs. Hi Sian.

Sian Leach

Hi Katie.

Kathryn Gehred

Sian and I when we were in grad school, we were sort of the the two people working on 18th century women's history projects. So, we ended up working together quite a bit. Yeah. What was the title of your thesis again,

Sian Leach

Redefining Loyalty: Loyalist Women in the American Revolution.

Kathryn Gehred 

Nice. Yes. And then I was working on what about Thomas Jefferson's granddaughter. So, we were sort of thematically linked, I should introduce you to one of my other guests, Lizzie, she portrayed a loyalist in Colonial Williamsburg as a costumed interpreter, and so she's very, it's sort of turned her into a loyalist.

Sian Leach

That's fun.

Kathryn Gehred

She has strong opinions about it.

Sian Leach

I'm sure.

Kathryn Gehred

So I know that your work right now isn't completely tied to your degree, but have you found that your background in women's history has impacted your career?

Sian Leach

Yeah. So I think that studying women's history really taught me a lot about storytelling, and how stories get told, whose stories get told, and how we kind of determined moving forward which stories matter. So, I do a lot of advocacy work now, and I think that framework of just like knowing that women's stories too often weren't told, weren't heard, got buried along the way, really influences how I approach my current work. I'm a Communications Manager, and so a lot of my work is trying to help women tell their own stories, and then using my platform at a nonprofit to amplify their voices.

Kathryn Gehred 

So historians in the future will be able to hear different people's voices

Sian Leach

Exactly. Changing what frustrated me about studying history.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, so your you worked on loyalist women, what what drew you to that subject?

Sian Leach

As an undergrad, I took a couple of women's history courses, and also took a lot of early American history classes, and spent a lot of time studying Patriot women. You know, as as many there's a lot of book history students do and got to Sarah Lawrence, and really started thinking about the other side of the revolution, and then more specifically, the ideas around who defined freedom and liberty and who got to like claim that, and kind of came to this idea of looking at Loyalist women because it really complicates the narrative that many people have learned about the American Revolution. It makes it way more complex when you start to realize that they weren't just like the bad guys of the story, though, specifically with loyalist women, they weren't necessarily just going along with what their husbands wanted. And then, also, when you start talking about race within it, it becomes even more complicated because especially for black women, in the time period, becoming a loyalist actually, was a way of owning freedom and like becoming a freed person.

Kathryn Gehred 

I visited Canada recently, and they have this like, whole thing exhibit on like the loyalists, enslaved people ended up there and I'm like, I don't know if I would describe them as like loyal to England, so much, is like England said you would be free like maybe loyalist is that the the descriptor I would put every single time you're describing. 

Sian Leach

Yeah, and I think that's why I like framing it around the idea of like, how are you defining liberty and freedom. And, I think that's often the framework used to like talk about patriots, but it's an interesting one when you like flip it. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh, totally. Yeah, they're not like all oh, what's his name the actor and in The Patriot, Jason Isaacs. Yeah. So sometimes, England was offering the better deal when it came to freedom. 

Sian Leach

It was complicated.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes. What type of sources you mentioned earlier that it's tough to find women sources and women's sources in general and particularly Loyalist women. So what sources did you use?

Sian Leach

So, I looked at a lot of diaries, memoirs and letters, and then also I looked at a lot of petitions, which showed a lot of the work related to property claims from loyalist women. So, after the revolution, loyalist women trying to claim their exiled husbands property, and it was like one of the few legal exceptions or allowing married women to make legal claims in their own names. because they were like my husband was exiled, it's not my fault. And, so that provided a another lens to look at it through, and women had to be the ones who put those petitions forward. So in some cases you would see like men in their family encouraging them to do it. But the petitions themselves were submitted by women.

Kathryn Gehred

See, and that's an interesting way to use gender as well that people don't always think of, it's like, Oh, if this new US government is taking property from these poor women, that doesn't look so great.

Sian Leach

Yeah, so and like just trying to figure out like, all of the different things, I also looked at some, like land documents from Canada to try and find names of women who had been exiled and ended up in Canada. So that was often a search of like, trying to figure out if I could then find other documents related to them just based on like, oh, their name shows up here, like they landed there. What else can I see about them?

Kathryn Gehred 

What would How would you describe the way that most Americans learned about loyalists? And what do we get right? And what do we get wrong?

Sian Leach

So I was thinking about this question, and the first thing that came to mind was, so my dad is from England, and he just never learned about the American Revolution. Just they skipped it. I think this is when they started talking about India, and I think that's a really interesting perspective. Because like, for a lot of American history students, this is like a really big defining part of our education, but globally speaking, like not actually the biggest of deals. It comes back to this idea of like, it's complicated as to who decided like which side to be on if they were going to be rebels or remain loyal to the crown. You know, I think the other piece is that too often the narrative about loyalists ends when the war ended, but really, for so many of these people that influenced the rest of their life, and they became refugees who had to, like find a new home in places that they've never been to before. But didn't necessarily sound appealing. When they were like, where am I going?

Kathryn Gehred 

So, the letter that we're reading today is by Eliza Johnston, and how did you discover her while you're working on your thesis? 

Sian Leach

Yeah, so I found her when she was already living in Nova Scotia, and when she was 72 years old, she wrote a memoir, I believe she dictated it to her one of her grandsons that was like most of her writings was this memoir called Recollections of a Georgia Loyalist, and it was her basically like, talking about her life. And it was really interesting because she still even though she had not lived in Georgia for many, many years, at that point, she still defined herself by that as being a Georgia loyalist, making it clear that like this was a big part of her life. A little bit about her. She was born in 1764, in Georgia, just outside of Savannah. Her mother died when she was 10. And she was sent to live with her great aunt in Savannah, and then when she was 15 years old, she married William Martin Johnston.

Kathryn Gehred

15?!

Sian Leach 

He was 25 which like 25 is not that old to be getting married, but 25 year old and a 15 year old is like ehh. And, he was a captain and the New York volunteers which was a loyalist regiment. Like so many others, they were forced to flee their home and spent years moving around to various places before finally ending up in Nova Scotia. So, they lived in Savannah, they lived in Charleston, South Carolina, St. Augustine, Florida, Scotland, Jamaica, and then finally settled in Nova Scotia. During her life, she gave birth to 10 children. When you get married at 15, you know.

Kathryn Gehred

You've got some time.

Sian Leach

And seven of her children survive past infancy. She's spent the majority of her life in Nova Scotia, she landed there in 1806, and spent the rest of her life living there until she died in 1848.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's super cool that she has a memoir. I think a lot of times when I'm trying to find more ideas about some of these women who wrote these letters, there's very little that you can find. But then there's this memoir that tells you like beat by beat what's going on in their life is so fascinating.

Sian Leach

Yeah, I love the fact that she, the interesting thing is she didn't leave a ton of letters from most of her life, but she did feel the need to like document it later. Like she was in her 70s and she's like no, you know what, this is a story that needs to be told like I'm doing it.

Kathryn Gehred 

To get into the context of the specific letter that we're going to be looking into today. It is a letter that Eliza wrote to her husband in 1784. So, this is very, very shortly after sort the end of the American Revolution, so she there her whole courtship and early marriage was like, during the Revolutionary War, and it's like, her husband is a loyalist, he's fighting in the war, and she's moving from all these different places as things seem to be going well, sometimes they're not well, and other times, so it's a pretty exciting youth, frankly. But, so at the time she's writing this letter, she's 19 years old. She is seven month, months pregnant at the time that she's writing this letter, and she's already the mother of two at this point, William, her husband is as we mentioned is 10 years older, so he's about 29, at this time, and she's writing from St. Augustine, Florida. They had for a while been living in Charleston, South Carolina, but they had to evacuate the city in 1782, for war reasons, at the victory of American Revolution reasons, so they fled to Florida, which was not technically part of the the colonies yet, it wasn't an American colony. So, she was in a British colony again, and she'd been living there for a little more than a year while her husband has been fighting in the war, and has been traveling a lot. She's been spending a lot of time living with her father-in-law. So at this point, she's living in her father-in-law with her father in law in St. Augustine, which she really likes St. Augustine, Florida. If you read her memoir, she has very nice things to say about that time in her life. Basically, what happened is after the battles in the fighting of the American Revolution are done, her husband actually joined them in St. Augustine in 1783, very briefly, but his father thought, 'Well, now that the war is over, you're not a soldier anymore, you actually have to get your life together.' And, sent him almost immediately to Edinburgh, Scotland to study medicine, because you want him to be a doctor. So again, she got married during the war, she her husband's away constantly, she hardly ever sees him, and then he's finally with her, and the war is over, and he's still alive, and then he's immediately sent away. So, this is the first letter that she's written after she's received the first letter saying that he's arrived safely, overseas. So, he's just left after kind of a disappointingly short interval and actually living with her and the children, so that's the context of her writing this letter. I also want to point out, she is seven months pregnant, and he's just gone again. So that I think should set up a little bit of the emotions, the context of what's going on. So, with that, I'm gonna go ahead and read the letter.

"Elizabeth Lichtenstein Johnston to William Martin Johnston, St. Augustine, January 15 1784. My dearest husband. Yesterday, I had the unspeakable pleasure of receiving yours by the Brig Caroline. It was doubly satisfactory, as I was anxious to hear of your safe arrival, you have sailed in a bad season of the year. Let me pour forth my gratitude and thanks to my creator for the preservation of my husband and the happy recovery of my darling daughter. Andrew is quite well. [Andrews her oldest son] I am somewhat surprised that you're expecting such an infant should know his letters, who is not three years old yet, and I think at full time a 12 month hence to begin him. Many sensible people will tell you to not write to stuff a child with learning before his mind had had time to expand. I suppose your short arrival in the city prevented your writing more fully. I wished much to hear whether you are better have that cruel disorder which distressed you so much when here. I am not just now in any particular want of money. And as your father is still in suspense, what his next move will be, I shall not draw for any until we are better settled. Probably, if your father disposes of his negros he may go to Scotland, though I have my fears on that head, as from the flattering accounts, the Loyalists their give of their large crops of indigo, he seems to have an idea of Jamaica, I should be distressed to take my children to so very unhealthy a place. Your father is greatly surprised that you're remaining in London, as your studies might be prosecuted with more success at Edinburgh. And I fear he thinks your reasons not the best for determining as you have done. I cannot read my father at present, but an opportunity will offer shortly by which I shall write him. I'm surprised he did not send the children toys as he promised them. As for myself, I want nothing. In your absence. Dress has no charms for me. I have neither spirits nor inclination to take part in any amusements. I have received all the attention from your family that I could possibly wish for. Mrs. Wood not accepted who has paid me more attention than I had reason to expect after the cruel manner in which you behave to her. I am yours truly. Eliza Johnston" Okay,

Sian Leach

I just love her sass.

Kathryn Gehred 

There's so much sass in this letter. I feel like it's very dry. But she's making her feelings known.

Sian Leach

So known.

Kathryn Gehred

In your words, tell me what's going on in this letter.

Sian Leach

So I mean, she's been left alone by her husband, again. She, and this is a theme that comes up in a lot of her letters is she's always commenting on the reasons why he doesn't write more. And there's always a reason for it. It's either, you know, like, Oh, it must have been the weather, or it must have been the timing of the ships. Or, oh, you just must have written more letters, and I haven't received them yet. I think that's my favorite. She's like, I know, You've written more letters, and I will I look forward to receiving them in the future. It's just like such, it's such a snarky approach to it. Like, she's disappointed, but rather than saying, like, oh, I'm so disappointed about it, she's like, oh, you're going to do better. I know, you have done better. I will keep my eye out for the post.

Kathryn Gehred 

What, what strikes me about that is because there's so many of these relationships, it was very normal for these there to be these big age gaps in relationships.

Sian Leach

Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

But, what that sometimes turns into is this kind of weird sort of, it's still a gender sort of role that the husband's supposed to be the master of the house or whatever, but there really was this kind of like fatherly aspect to sometimes these relationships when somebody's 25, and they're married to a 15 year old, right? And so like, sometimes when I'm reading these women's letters back and forth with their husbands, their husband really is lecturing them like a father, like telling them to write better and all that. So it's so fun to get a letter like she's much younger than her husband, she's still a teenager. And she's like, no. She's like, you should be writing anymore. I suppose that you only wrote me so short a letter because you're just arrived in a city, and so like she's, she's not actually yelling at them. She's still like, filling her role, right? And she's still being the wife, but she's, she's making her point. Nevertheless.

Sian Leach

She isn't doing it very much within the expectations on her of she is being a good wife, she is being a good mother. She's fulfilling all of those like womanly duties and roles that she's supposed to be doing. But like, she's not always happy about it.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's her little bit where she's like, I'm surprised that you should think like your son, who's not yet three years old should know his letters. That's just such a nice little scolding. "Tis not right to stuff a child with learning."

Sian Leach

When I came up that line, my question is like, is she questioning if he knows how old his child is? Like, have you been gone so long that you don't remember that he is still very young.

Kathryn Gehred

He's just a baby.

Sian Leach

Like, of course, he's not reading yet, obviously.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think the section about her father deciding what to do next is interesting. Basically, they moved to St. Augustine, and she really likes it there. But Great Britain, like, as part of the peace treaty gives Florida back Spain. So, once again, all of their plans have to change. They are colonists. They want to live in a British colony. They were doing that in America, they were in South Carolina, they go to Florida, it says American colony or as a British colony, and then they've got to move again. But then they have options. Like there's all sorts of English colonies all over the place. So it's like, well, do we go to Canada? Do we go to Jamaica? Do we go to the like, you know, the West Indies?

Sian Leach

Yeah. So many so many choices, but all of them British colonies.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. The sun never sets on the British Empire, I guess. I do think it's interesting that the her she doesn't want to go to Jamaica, because she says it's an unhealthy place, which she's right in that I think they call it seasoning when you would arrive in the West Indies. But if you if you if you were able to live there for a year and you'd get your fever and survive it, then you were okay. But a lot of people die that first year.

Sian Leach

I think she left one of her like her oldest daughter. I think she left her in England when they went to Jamaica, because she wasn't she didn't want to risk her daughter's life by going to Jamaica, so she left her to be educated in England while they went to Jamaica. 

Kathryn Gehred 

I do wonder if the fact that she's coming from Georgia, which was slaveholding state and clearly her father in law, also own slaves. The there was these are plantation owners who are trying to slaves moving to a place where it's a majority "black country." Even though it's they're still very much white colonists are in power and all of that, but there are free black people in Jamaica and there's there and the white people are vastly outnumbered in Jamaica and I feel like that is something that would be of concern to somebody like Elizabeth.

Sian Leach

Yeah, she her father was also a slave owner. And something interesting on that is, in her memoirs, she kind of whitewashes things and just like skims over the whole slavery thing. Like, we're not we don't really want to talk about it too much. So like, by the time she was older, she knew that that was not okay, but very much a part of her childhood and her early adult life.

Kathryn Gehred 

Because in Canada, there were more free black people, at least in Nova Scotia, so all of a sudden, the different society that she's moving into

Sian Leach

Exactly, and she adapted and learned and was like, oh, let's not talk about this part of my past.

Kathryn Gehred 

They do end up actually going to England next, they don't go to Jamaica right away. They go to England. And, and there's kind of a cute story when she arrived in London because they were expecting I think that at that point, William had gone to Edinburgh and was getting settled. But they had arrived in London. She wrote, she described it, she said, "As we had never before, been in a place of such bustle and stir. We were rather alarmed and could not sleep, to add to our fears. Suddenly, about midnight, a female servant with a candle abruptly opened the door and asked if Captain Johnston's lady was there. Why, what do you want? I'm Mrs. Johnston, I answered, hardly knowing what I said, with perfect composure, she replied, then you can make room for the captain." And I guess he shows up in the middle of the night, because he found out that they had arrived there. And he came back to London to meet with his family. I thought that was cute.

Sian Leach

So cute. I think that is also like she's giving him you know, a bit of a hard time through this letter. But, I think they really did care for each other. And like, even though she didn't always agree with what he was doing, or where he wanted to move, like she deeply cared for him, and like, I think it was mutual. Like, I think he also really loved her.

Kathryn Gehred 

To let her sort of speak to him that way, that she felt comfortable enough to sort of tease him and all of that, I think, is actually again, I read a lot of letters and not all of these relationships are that healthy. This one comes across a little bit better, at least with that. I like her little dramatic bit about in your absence dress has no charms for me.

Sian Leach

And, like she really it's like throughout the whole letter. She's like, really like weighing in on that. Like, I don't I don't need anything with you gone. It's fine, and like following the like, in your absence, dress has no charms for me. She says like "I have neither spirits nor inclination to take part in any amusements" like, she's 19. And she's very serious. She doesn't need those amusements, not while her husband's gone.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. And it's sort of like I could be dressing up and going out to parties, but I'm not, because I'm here alone.

Sian Leach

With our two children with our kids and your father.

Kathryn Gehred 

I can I can feel that energy emanating across 200 years. And oh, in that little bit at the end, where she says Mrs. Wood, I don't know who Mrs. Wood is. Do you know who Mrs. Wood is?

Sian Leach

I do not. I looked I was trying to like find my old notes to see if I had figured it out. I do not know who this is.

Kathryn Gehred 

Because it comes up in more than one letter. So something happened before he left St. Augustine between William Johnston and Mrs. Wood where she has after the cruel manner in which he behaved to her is the way that Eliza describes it. And then in another letter, she says Mrs. Wood has accompanied us and is ready to lie in so I mentioned she's pregnant as well. "Remember my request and a former letter and let her not I beseech you be shocked in her present situation by any unkind behavior of yours. But meter my love as if nothing had passed." I want to know what passed so badly.

Sian Leach

It's the frustrating part about her letters is that because she didn't, so many of her letters didn't survive, and we've only got a few of them, there are like these big holes that I'm like, what happened? With Eliza Johnston, you have to rely on this memoir that she wrote when she was 72. About I her, her younger years, and you're like, Okay, clearly, you know, like, things might be a little different in her recollections than they were, and how they initially happened. And like, she skips over some of these moments that I'm like, but tell me more.

Kathryn Gehred 

Like, and she's saying it to her grandson, as you say that's gonna flavor the stories that you tell us? Another thing that's kind of funny is sometimes, like, I'll be trying to find a historical fact in these letters, right? And I'll be trying to like figure out where somebody moved and it'll be like, some big thing of like, well, did they go to this college, or did they move at this time? And I'll find some letter that tells me like, well, I know they got sick, like 1765, and like, I know like that her knee was really bad. I'll just know these like insane little details about somebody's life. But I don't know the big thing where I'm like, I can't tell you where they moved. I can't tell you like, how old they are, but I can tell you like they really hate it. like cabbage, like it's just funny.

Sian Leach

Well, they tell you to write about the big details in their letters. Everybody knew those things. But you didn't necessarily know if your neighbor had gotten over the cold she had or had, you know, successfully had her child, or things like that. That's what matters.

Kathryn Gehred 

I just love this letter. It's like short, it's sweet. It gives you a definitely a little slice of life of what is actually like a very exciting situation that like rather precarious and dramatic.

Sian Leach

Yeah. It's just like, there's so many unknowns. And she knows that they're unknown. She's like, I don't really know what's going to happen. We might go here, we might go here. I don't really know. And like, she seems like, she's just going with it. Like,

Kathryn Gehred 

Like she seems pretty confident that she's going to be okay, wherever. She, she doesn't want to go to Jamaica, but like, I mean, her husband made it through the war safe. I mean, she's 19. I think there's like a little bit of sort of, like, confidence that comes along with that even at this more dangerous time.

Sian Leach

Yeah. And like most of her, I mean, most of her life, she was like, she was 12 when the Declaration of Independence was signed, so like most of her older life at this point has been living through war. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah.

Sian Leach

And fleeing from war.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah. So that brings us to like, so the Loyalists really were like, they went from, in a lot of cases, like she was from a fairly wealthy family. This is a slaveholding family. This is like she's kind of the upper Gentry crust. So she goes and English citizen, like sort of proud of that, to like, go from that to being oppressed class isn't the right word for it, but like to be sort of a refugee that this switch is a huge change. It's a really interesting sort of situation to find oneself in. Did you see when you're studying loyalist women, like how did people handle this?

Sian Leach

So I think a lot of it is this, like, this identity as a loyalist followed them. So like, even though they were living in other colonies, creating new lives and other places this like, this is a really defining moment in their lives, which it makes sense. If you have to flee your home, and leave everything you know, that's going to be a moment that kind of defines a lot about who you are. It's interesting, because they end up in so many different types of places like the women who end up in Jamaica, and the women who end up in Nova Scotia, so completely different. Or, the ones who like go back to England, it all ends very differently. But they all come from the starting point of deciding to remain loyal to the crown, for whatever reason, or the ones who get left behind by their husbands when they're exiled and try and claim their property. Those are some other fun ones that I really enjoy this idea like, oh, did they actually have their own ideas? Or were they just going along with their husbands? And it's like, no, they, they had thoughts of their own, like, yes, it was influenced by them being women in this time period, but they still had ideas, thoughts, political beliefs that like did not always line up with their husbands. Often it was similar, but I mean, today, you still see similar things with marriages, like you tend to align yourself with people who have similar beliefs as you. It's not shocking if they if their husband is a loyalist, and they also are.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, yeah, I think that it is also true that the line between patriot and loyalist could be a little muddy, and particularly because these, like so many of these people are of the same social class and are really mixing together quite a bit. I think, when I was doing research about George Washington, the fact that he was obviously very strongly for independence, like I'm not gonna say he was not strongly for independence, but his entire social circle was British, like the British governor and a lot of his friends were loyalists. His son's tutor was loyalist. His son's entire social circle was like the hardcore Maryland loyalists, and so imagine like, well, it's not his, it's his stepson. Everyone who spent everyone who's playing cards with everyone is, like hanging out with his entire youth social group are all hardcore loyalists to the extent that they got like, kicked out of Maryland, but like, and they're hanging out with George Washington's ward, son, essentially. So they're all interacting on more of a basis than I think that sometimes we imagine it.

Sian Leach

Yeah, I think that's definitely the case. I think, looking back, it's easy to be like, oh, there were patriots. There were loyalists. And in reality, it was like, No, it was a lot less clear. And a lot of times, people didn't necessarily, weren't necessarily getting involved to begin with. They are like, I'm just doing my thing. I've got my life, and then like the war forced them to make decisions when it impacted their daily life in their town or their city. I think that a lot of the case, especially like in Southern colonies, it took longer for those divisions to like, take place when the war finally made it to them.

Kathryn Gehred 

It hits them at right at the end of the ward, and it is brutal down south. 

Sian Leach

Yeah. And I think that's like, the thing is, like, people were still living their lives, while all this was happening. Like, I mean, Eliza had three children.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's more complicated than you ever think. 

Sian Leach

So much more complicated. Like, I feel like when I started researching for my thesis, I was like, 'oh, we're gonna look at the other side of this. Like, I've studied patriots. Let's see what the other side says.' And it very quickly was like, 'oh, wow, this is messy.' I think that was like the big takeaway. And you know, I think that's the theme of history. It's really messy.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's messy. And all of these people, okay. It's like, oh, they're fighting the American Revolution. They're also having all sorts of kids. Alexander Hamilton got married. Everybody's having kids.

Sian Leach

Everyone is having lots of babies. I have so many questions about like, how is all of this happening at once and like, you don't know if you're ever gonna see a person again.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, these winter encampments, everybody was partying. They were the camp follower women, all sorts this stuff. Yeah, they were women all over the place. This is not just this, like poor men, roughing it out in the cold. The American Revolution was much more hornier than you expected.

Sian Leach

That's a line.

Kathryn Gehred

A letter like this, that it's talking about family. And it's talking about just sort of like the logistical struggles of warfare is, even though this is just like a sort of small, insignificant, seemingly little letter. It does tell you stuff about the revolution.

Sian Leach

It really does.

Kathryn Gehred

Well, Sian, this was a delightful conversation. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast.

Sian Leach

Thank you for inviting me. I've missed talking history with you.

Kathryn Gehred 

Eighteenth century women is where it is at.

Sian Leach

Always a good time.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you very much. As for my listeners, I will provide some show notes with links to some further reading if you're interested in finding more about Elizabeth or any of the other quotes that we ended up getting to in the episode. And as ever, I am your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.