Episode 25 — If A Lady CAN Be Patriotic...

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 25: "If A Lady CAN Be Patriotic..."
Published on July 8, 2021

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. Today, my guest is my colleague, Katie Blizzard, who works with me at the Washington Papers, and she is also an editor at the Papers of Martin Van Buren. So Hi, Katie.

Katie Blizzard

Hi, Katie. Great to be here and talk a little bit more about Van Buren, who I understand has really only gotten into people's popular culture attention from the Seinfeld episode about the Van Buren boys gang. So here I am happy to provide a little more detail on why that gang is so interested in Van Buren,

Kathryn Gehred 

I have zero memory of that episode of Seinfeld, but I'm delighted. 

Katie Blizzard

I have no memory sadly of it because I have not seen it, but it is frequently suggested for my viewing whenever I tell people I'm an editor for the Van Buren Papers Project.

Kathryn Gehred 

I'm counting this is women's letter because it's a letter from Martin Van Buren to a woman. It's to Judith Rives, but we'll get into that a little bit. Tell me a little bit about the Martin Van Buren Papers Project.

Katie Blizzard

The project is primarily located at Cumberland University, which is a university located in Lebanon, Tennessee outside of Nashville. It started actually in the late twentieth century with a microfilm edition project of the Van Buren Papers. But anyone who's seen these letters, just knows how atrocious the handwriting is for this period. And it really deserves some serious transcription. So a project that was started in the 2010s got to work on doing that type of transcription and has partnered with the Center for Digital Editing at the University of Virginia, which is how I've gotten involved remotely and working for this project.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, it's all going to be freely available online. All of these papers?

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, there's a website that is fantastically titled vanburenpapers.org. So you can go there and you can find any letters that we've already published, the transcriptions of those letters, and all the letters we transcribe will be available on that site. And, then there will also be a select print edition of the letters.

Kathryn Gehred

And what's your role with the project?

Katie Blizzard

I am a consulting research editor. So, I am responsible for doing transcriptions of documents as well as verifying transcriptions produced by student editors or other editors at the project.

Kathryn Gehred 

Are you an expert now at reading old handwriting?

Katie Blizzard

So when you first started looking at Van Buren's handwriting, you think 'Oh my god, it can't get any worse than this,' and it does. His, I'm not sure if they knew what they were writing to one another back then, because it's just a bunch of gibberish at points, but you do get used to Van Buren's handwriting, it becomes something a little comforting when you're moving from John Forsyth's handwriting, which is even worse, you go back to Van Buren's, and you're like, 'Oh, thank God, I recognize this,' it's got a steep learning curve. But, once you get over it, it's a lot of fun to really dig in and decipher these puzzles that they've left behind, and they're hastily written scrawl.

Kathryn Gehred 

I am not I have to admit, my presidential history is not so great; studying women's history in the United States did not prepare me to know very much about Martin Van Buren. So can you give me a sort of brief introduction to Martin Van Buren himself?

Katie Blizzard

Sure. I just would like to point that your initial prompting question here was "How has working with his papers changed your understanding of him as a president," but I just want to say it hasn't. I knew going in that his reputation as President was not very good. And, it has not changed my opinion of that he had, he had a lot of frustrations and factionalism to deal with when he was president. So, I would like to say in advance of the introduction of him that I give that it's really his larger career that I've gained respect for in working on these papers. The introduction I have, I'll start, that he was born in Kinderhook, New York in 1782. So, he was the first president that was born, not as a British subject, but actually as an American resident. Of course, as you know, he was the eighth president, but his larger career as a politician, including the Secretary of State and vice president under Jackson, before that, as a national senator. I I like to think of him as a career statesman and politician, because he's famously credited for contributing to the American political system, so he was really instrumental in creating an organized ideologically unified system in New York and then large on the larger national stage. Like I said, working on these papers has given me a lot more respect for his larger career. It's interesting reading the documents from his later President, like later years in the presidency, as he's seen people like Rives no longer supporting him.

Kathryn Gehred

Right.

Katie Blizzard

In this letter, that he's writing to raise his wife Judith, it seems like they're their best buds, but there's a fantastic political cartoon at the Library of Congress that it's, it's a ship wreck, and Van Buren is one of the men overboard, and Rives is one of the men shown in the clouds, who's responsible for the gale of wind that upturned Van Buren's boat or ship as it sailed towards the 1840 election.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, I just did a little basic sort of reading about Van Buren before this episode, and I did enjoy that he was known for being very politically savvy, and his political enemies called him the "Little Magician," or the "Red Fox of Kinderhook," which is great.

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, another nickname for him was "Old Kinderhook" or "O.K."

Kathryn Gehred 

Just from this letter reading it, it seems like he's kind of like this political bro type guy. Like he's making these little jokes in there. Anyway, we'll get to it when we get to the letter. So, this letter, so that's, as I said, Martin Van Buren is writing to a woman, Judith Rives. So tell me a little bit about Judith.

Katie Blizzard

So Judith Rives was born in central Virginia, as was her husband William Campbell Rives. She is an author of four different titles, including Tales and Souvenirs of a Residence in Europe, Van Buren got to know both Judith Rives and William Cabell Rives as early as the late 1820s, which would have been around the time that Jackson was campaigning to be president, and both William Cabell Rives and Martin Van Buren served under the Jackson administration. Rives as a Minister to France and Van Buren first as Secretary of State, and later Vice President. So, I provide the backstory about William Cabell Rives, because I think it's really crucial to understanding the political innuendos and allusions that are being made in this letter. Because, as is written in the letter, Van Buren expected that some of the information would have been shared with Mr. Rives. And later that month on the 10th of April, Mr. Rives responds to this letter with a letter of his own. I think it's interesting, perhaps to a question you may ask of what the relationship was like between these three individuals is that material written from Van Buren to Judith Rives is was referenced could have referenced and may have been shown two Mr. Rives, because it concerned political information in Washington society. 

Kathryn Gehred 

This sort of public nature of correspondence at this time period is not necessarily public. But like if you wrote a letter to somebody, it was sort of expected that it'd be read to the rest of their family and in certain cases, and I feel like particularly for an unmarried man writing to a married woman, like they would have had some sort of agreement that her husband is involved in, in these letters. I feel like a letter from an unmarried man to a married woman that she wouldn't show her husband would be pretty scandalous at this time.

Katie Blizzard

Oh, yeah, yeah. Especially given things that Van Buren the very flirty, and by today's standard, very flirty things he's injecting into this letter, of course, I suspect there was some oversight some gentleman's agreement.

Kathryn Gehred 

I've had a couple letters from men written to women that I count as women's correspondents because there really is a difference in tone in the way that men at this time period wrote, when they knew it was going to be a woman reading it like there's this kind of flirty, Thomas Jefferson's just terrible with it. Like Jefferson's regular letters are pretty boring and flat, and maybe you have a couple jokes in there, but like his letters to women are sometimes just like you're cringing for him. Stop trying so hard Jefferson. You're not as clever as you think you are. To get into the exact context of what's happening at the time of this letter, which might make it a little easier to understand. The time period that this is written is this is from 1 April 1835. At this point, Van Buren was 53 years old. He was a widower at this point, his wife, Hannah Hoes Van Buren had died in 1819 at the age of 35, and he never remarried. I guess when he was president, this first lady was actually the person who had people considered to be his first lady with his daughter in law. The exact time of this letter, he is still Vice President of the United States, under Andrew Jackson. He had actually played a crucial political role in getting Jackson elected and Andrew Jackson and Martin Van Buren, were very politically close, they work together very well. And as far as the functioning of Jackson's cabinet, Martin Van Buren has a lot to do with how effective that was. So Jackson is always very fond of Van Buren. Also, Van Buren seems to have been one of those vice presidents who had a lot of influence. It's actually, from my reading, my understanding, it seems like he was more successful as a vice president than he was finally as president. And at the exact time of this letter, he is campaigning to be the next Democratic Republican presidential candidate following Andrew Jackson. And in fact, little more than a month later, on May 20, the nominating convention chose him to be the candidate. So that's sort of the point, at the time he's writing this, he is very much in the thick of his political life, trying to make connections trying to secure this candidacy.

Katie Blizzard

I'd also add, that at this time, he's anticipating and Rives is anticipating that Rives will be the running mate for Van Buren.

Kathryn Gehred

Oh, I didn't know that.

Katie Blizzard

Yeah. At the Baltimore convention in May, there was an upset Rives was not chosen as the running mate. It was actually Richard Johnson from Kentucky, it was hoped that Rives would be the running mate to get that Southern partiality in there, so there's, there's another letter just a few months from this one of April 1. It's in June, where Rives shares a little bit of his disappointment of losing the vice presidency nomination.

Kathryn Gehred 

As far as what's going on in Judith's life, we talked a little bit about her relationship with William Cabell Rives, but at this point, he'd stepped down as US Senator, so he'd he'd been senator from 1832 to 1834, but stepped down and he was reelected as a senator in 1835. So this is kind of a moment where he is in a Yeah, he's he's not in a really solid political position at exactly this point. Right.

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, things are souring for him this year. This is an important year for him in his relationship with others in his party.

Kathryn Gehred 

So Judith has I'm imagining is also very affected by her husband's political career. And that's sort of what what's going on at this point. So, that is a little bit of a context, I'm gonna go ahead and jump into the letter. It's a little bit of a long one, but I think it's best to just go through it and then at the end, we'll go through sort of key points and things that struck each of us about it sounds good.

Katie Blizzard

Sure. I do want to be clear, this is not, as you mentioned, how Jefferson wrote to his peers, his male peers differently than how he wrote to women. This is I have not seen as humorous a style in his letters to Cabinet members and and friends. I mean, there there might be stuff sprinkled in, but this definitely like every paragraph he's really trying to do a little some extra here.

Kathryn Gehred 

Martin Van Buren to Judith Rives, first April 1835.

"My dear friend, I have done wrong to suffer your last letter to remain so long unnoticed the pleasure I derive from it turns the case into one of ingratitude. But you are good and will pardon me. Your excuses for not paying us a visit our with a single exception, bad. That exception consists in the object of your visit to Nelson. Those are matters that must be attended as long as people will marry. And I hope you will not refuse to tender me the same service if it should be my unlucky destiny to require it. Let's say you to Mrs. T of Ravensburg. Asked Mr. Rives, whether it would promote the good course in Virginia and say you whether she would do and what is more germane to the matter whether you think she would be so much beside herself as to have me. I have not seen her for many years and unless Virginia gets out of the woods soon a closer connection with her would seem to offer but few inducements. But, I hope the old lady, Virginia meaning will mentor principals soon and her ways to so that you may no longer derive an excuse from this condition for not visiting us. And so you could not come because forsooth you had been accustomed to be Mrs. Somebody and was not sure that you would play well the part of Mrs. Nobody. Do you know that I and I hope I am not the only sensible person in Washington think more of plain Mrs. Rives than I would have Mrs. Anything you please for virtute officii, I believe the lawyers have it."

[So that is Latin virtute officii means virtue of Office according to Google Translate]

"and I am almost tempted to scold you for allowing yourself to think otherwise. But we all know that you Virginians are for the most part only theoretical and professing Republicans, we must lend you some of our New York tactics to bring you right. How are your elections going? I see that you have to suffer for my sins. That is right. For God knows I have suffered enough for my Southern partialities. Since I was a boy, I have been stigmatized as the apologist of southern institutions. And now, forsooth you good people will have it. Nolans volens, that I am an abolitionist and several other "ists" that do not deserve to be mentioned. But I am growing, as you say, spiteful which is my aversion, and above all, I ought not to abrade you with infirmities which I know you are too intelligent not to see, and to patriotic, if a lady can be patriotic, not to condemn. I wish your husband could have gone to Ohio, it would have been useful to him, but his excuses a good one. We are here cooperatively quiet and enjoy ourselves rationally. The President's health has been bad and is still delicate. I have been driving him out today, and was distressed to find him so feeble. But he is tough, and will live long enough to bring Louis Philippe to terms. The Ohio and Michigan business has given him some trouble, but his good sense and good fortune will carry him through. My avocation for several months has been to answer queries from Virginia. None was a poor devil subjected by so severe a cross examination is I have been by the Old Dominion and from no other quarter. After Mr. Butler's communication done, Mr. Richie appears, I hope we will have gotten through. I mentioned these things for Mr. Rives, who is I am sure to gallant to deny me the pleasure of putting my communication to him in this most agreeable form. The President was not decidedly positive on his course, but will probably remain here till July, and then go to [illegible] out for a month or two. I shall remain here with him until the first of May and perhaps longer. You and Mr. Rives should visit the North this summer. I have a long and interesting letter from Mrs. Van Rensselaer a few days since, and have given her in return a full view of the history and present state of the French affair in which she feels a deep interest. Looking at it and its consequences with her usual good sense. Mrs. Donaldson is as handsome and agreeable as ever. Her husband, [illegible] to leave her for a month or two. Mr. Smith leaves us tomorrow, his master John, having ordered him to his studies. He and the major desire to be remembered to you. Remember me kindly to Mr. Rives and tell him I should be happy to hear from him. And believe me to be Very Truly Yours, M. Van Buren."

This is a sassy little letter, I think.

Katie Blizzard

Oh, yeah. "Sassy Magician." He might give us a new nickname,

Kathryn Gehred 

The "Sassy Little Red Fox" petition. To go into, okay, he's joking about her not visiting and that she's given him bad reasons. With the single exception of that she appears to be attending a wedding. Do you know anything about this wedding?

Katie Blizzard

I don't. I would like to point that out that he says your visit to Nelson, which I presume means Nelson County, Virginia, which would be in the neck of the woods for the Rives, who would at this time be located in Albemarle County, Virginia where Castle Hill their estate is located.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, so I like his little bit about how you can be excused from that visiting because you're going to a wedding. And I hope that if I ever have unlucky enough to marry again, you come to my wedding.

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, what do you say in here about Hannah Hoes? 

Kathryn Gehred 

Just classic fifty-three year old man. Oh, ball and chain humor.

Katie Blizzard

Maybe avant garde "Boomer humor" here.

Kathryn Gehred 

And then I wasn't able to figure out who Mrs. T of Ravensburg was, but I like his little joke that he's like, maybe I'd marry a Virginian because he's not doing very well politically in Virginia at this point. And he's like, "Well, if I marry someone."

Katie Blizzard

Yeah. Well, Van Buren.

Kathryn Gehred

The little bit, like "I hope the old lady," I was like, that's not going to be good at that. He says meaning Virginia. So, he refers to the state of Virginia as being the old lady who needs to mentor principals. Talking about a lot of this letter seems to be about Martin Van Buren losing a lot of support from Virginia. And, I think he is sort of hoping his relationship with the Rives and anybody else that he can can get him some good credit. And I think part of the reason that he wasn't doing Well in Virginia was because he had gotten a reputation, and he mentioned that he complains about it for being anti slavery. And people are calling him an abolitionist even. 

Katie Blizzard

I think actually the month before there were queries as to his position on DC abolishing slavery and what his stance on that would be, and so this is very much a topic of concern for him as a candidate to the presidency of being able to assuage southern voters as well as Northern voters with a slavery policy, which is that he's not going to intervene, it's up to the states to figure that out. And that, of course, we know later on that he would run on the Free Soil Party platform in the 40s. But here, he's saying that, yeah, he's, he's, he's frustrated with how people are painting his views on slavery, he wants to appeal to everybody as much as possible.

Kathryn Gehred 

And that's one of those for somebody who's inventing the career politician or the career statesman job of him being like, well, I don't want to make the New York voters mad. But I also don't want to make the Virginian voters mad. So how can he be like, both pro and con? Slavery at the same time, and just that clearly, obviously, having no principles, or moral take on the subject whatsoever?

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, let's just kick the can down the road,

Kathryn Gehred 

Being accused of being an abolitionist, abolitionist, as if it's, that could be like something out of politics today, or he's like an abolitionist or any other is, I don't know actually what other "ists" he would be accused of at this time, because people weren't really calling people like racists quite like that wasn't the language yet. So I think of it as being like, racist, sexist, homophobic, or whatever. But they wouldn't be using that language back then. So I wonder what else they were accusing him of? 

Katie Blizzard

I don't know. I'm, I'm wondering in part, this is I'd like to caution that this is pure speculation on my part, but fiscal policy is very much of concern to the party at this time. There's factions in the party that are growing that have different ideas as to how fiscal policy should be handled, and so I wonder if that if there's an "ist" in there that he is afraid of being accused of.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so his little section where he says one of her excuses for not visiting DC was she was accustomed to being Mrs. Somebody. And she was not sure she played well, the part of Mrs. Nobody. I think that's kind of an interesting little insight into DC society. So she was going to be there from being the wife of a congressman to being the wife of plain old Mr. Rives.

Katie Blizzard

I kind of saw it as a backhanded compliment of "You, you didn't want to come if you were going to be a Mrs. Nobody. But I will have you know that I like you just the way you are playing 'Mrs. Old Rives.'

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, that's true. It's very patronizing. And his little I almost want to scold you, it's like, okay, calm down, Martin Van Buren. We all know that you Virginians are for the most part only theoretical and professing Republicans, we must lend you some of our New York tactics. This really backs up the take, I feel like, of Martin Van Buren as sort of like a strategic political type guy. He's talking about their New York tactics, at this point.

Katie Blizzard

A chess player in politics, so to speak.

Kathryn Gehred

Is he talking a little bit about the Whig party going on, because there really are people who are trying to break away there's factions and the Democratic Republicans at this point, the party is going through a split,

Katie Blizzard

I think with the New York tactics to bring you right that that makes me think of the ideological unification that party politics, organized poly party politics would strive for. Yeah, any factionalism would would be abhorrent. 

Kathryn Gehred 

So, he's got to get get those rowdy Virginians in line. It doesn't seem like he was able to do that. particularly well. And then of course, he has the little jab about can a woman be patriotic?

Katie Blizzard

Ever heard of a little filly called Lady Liberty, Martin Van Buren?

Kathryn Gehred 

Maybe he'd marry her. It's just funny to me that he could write something like if a lady can be patriotic in the letter that he's writing to a woman about politics. This is very much a letter about what's going on. Like it's it's in like a conversational, jokey sort of tone, but he's writing about politics and news and what's going on and he's really filling her in. And he says, like, of course, update your husband about this as well. But I think that's funny because I think certain people would have avoided writing to a woman about any sort of form of politics, depending on the person. What's your understanding? Were they like, good friends? Or is it more like he was good friends with her husband and then this sort of correspondence carried out After that, yeah, so

Katie Blizzard

This is speculation on my part but I like to think that Van Buren being a widower living in Washington society that he really had to play the part of two different people in society, or two roles. I think that he strove to create a relationship with the male politicians and their wives, to create solid relationships with both of them and to really set himself on solid ground in Washington society. I did in advance of today's getting together, I found another letter that he wrote her in 1829, where he wrote, "I wish you took interest in anything here, here being Albany, that it might have something to write as a consideration for what I'm about to ask of you. That is, if you will pardon my presumption. I like to hear the gossip of the female world of Washington and I should be ashamed if I did not. For those smaller concerns are among the real comforts of life. How am I to get it?" I think that he is good friends with William Cabell Rives, but like I said, is trying to create relationships with the wives of the men that he's working with too. To really create solid relationships with everyone that he'd be working with and seeing around Washington.

Kathryn Gehred 

I love that quote. That really fits into the sort of parlor politics type feel of Washington at this point, and that's actually something that Andrew Jackson, I think, was sort of famously not very good at the women he introduced into Washington, DC society were almost always entirely scandalous. But politics isn't just the official, you know, meetings of Congress and all of that politics, as we all know, is also happening in things like dinner parties, and conversations and social life. And even more so at this time period,1835, where there's things like who's invited to whose parlor in the afternoon who's visiting who, who has good relationships and friendships, and I've read the argument that this is something that Thomas Jefferson was very good at, actually, he had a sort of a feminine style of politics, and it was about who was talking about who and keeping up with the gossip. And, just from that, quote, that you read it, like Martin Van Buren sees the value of what is going on in DC society and who's being invited where and what's being discussed behind the scenes, because that does really impact actual, like, Britain published political decisions.

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, Martin Van Buren says, "spill the tea, if you please."

Kathryn Gehred 

Literally. There are a couple things that he mentioned that I needed to look up, he mentions that Andrew Jackson is tough and will live long enough to bring Louis Philippe to terms. So, that is discussing a important political fight that's happening at this point where Andrew Jackson was trying to get the French king, Louie Felipe to pay reparations for American shipping losses during the Napoleonic Wars. So, there had been a treaty in 1831, that had not yet been paid. This was sort of seen as one of Andrew Jackson's big political fights at this moment. And then the Ohio and Michigan business was of interest to me, personally, because this is something that I had no idea existed. This is a reference to the Toledo war, which was a boundary dispute between Ohio and Michigan. So I had heard of this, because I'm from Ohio. And, I went to Bowling Green State University, which is up north, very close to Toledo. Apparently, there was a very small strip of land called the Toledo Strip between Ohio and Michigan, that Michigan claimed and Ohio claimed, and in March 1835, the governor of Ohio sent 600 armed militia men to claim that strip and Michigan responded with about 1000 militia to the City of Toledo to fight to defend it, so it was almost an actual war. There were there were armed people facing off, and it was a bit of a disaster for Andrew Jackson and federal government because I believe it was a federal government error that even led to the dispute, and so literally two days after this, Andrew Jackson sent representatives from Washington to go up there and try to negotiate this out. And he ends up supporting Ohio instead of Michigan, because Ohio had more voters, more representatives in Congress, and it was nobody really cared about it. Except for what political gains you could get.

Katie Blizzard

Yeah, it's not transparent at all.

Kathryn Gehred

I'm sure there's people who care very deeply about it in Ohio and Michigan. And, at Bowling Green, Toledo was our college rivals. So I'm sure there were a lot of jokes about like who wants Toledo, we should have given it to Michigan. So, I mentioned earlier he mentioned Mr. Ritchie, who was Thomas Ritchie, the editor of the Richmond Enquirer, and he was the state printer of Virginia. So these positions of state printer and the post office were very influential in political maneuvering at this time. And Mr. Butler was probably Benjamin Franklin Butler, who was Andrew Jackson's Attorney General, and I did some digging to see because he mentioned that there was going to be something published, I think he's referring to this article that was published on April 3, so two days later, which was a strong defense of Martin Van Buren, which they said in the article, it aimed to give a frank and manly exposition of Mr. Van Buren's course and opinions, so this is sort of Van Buren doing what he can to try to get some of these Virginia voters back. Now, the last paragraph is mostly I think, some of the social news, right, he's updating on whose husbands are traveling. And so do you recognize some of the folks that he mentions in this last paragraph? 

Katie Blizzard

I think that a number of the people who are being referred to later in this paragraph Smith, Mrs. Donaldson, Major, I think these are references to individuals in the Van Buren and Jackson families, who of course, he would know very well, they're either being his own son or family members of someone he's working very closely with.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, so we've got a letter from the Vice President, I think this is just a really fascinating little piece of correspondence. It's cute. It's funny, it's got sort of this flirty element to it, but then also just steeped in politics, I think, again, Martin Van Buren, that "Little Red Fox." So to sum up, why, why when you were doing your letter checks, what drew you to this letter,

Katie Blizzard

There's, there's a variety of things that drew me to this letter. One I mentioned previously, that this project grew out of a microfilm edition of Van Buren's papers, and so when you're looking at images of microfilm, you're you're you're multiple layers removed from the original document. And so if the original document is faded, as was the case of this letter, you're not going to see or read very much. And so it was really important to me that we get the original, we get an image of the original manuscript to kind of recover this because Judith Rives, I felt like I hadn't seen her name come up in other transcription checks I had been doing. So I kind of thought, well, we need to get on this because William Cabell Rives is kind of a big deal at this moment. The other thing that drew me to this letter is that been living in central Virginia, some of the places that are being mentioned in this letter and other letters to Judith Rives, or William Cabell, Rives are places I'm familiar with, and so it's fun to get that historical look to places that I pass on a daily basis. And then thirdly, what's not to love at a sassy Van Buren letter. This is just too much fun. It's a party bid, I love to pull out to talk about Van Buren, did anyone know that the eighth president of the United States could be so sassy. Those are the different things that that really drew me to this letter.

Kathryn Gehred 

As I was doing my little research about Martin Van Buren, I saw that he didn't have the same level of sort of higher education than a lot of men. At this time we're getting he had, he was educated, but he wasn't like a college man. And I wonder if that has something to do with him having these like good relationships with women, who at this point, we're still pretty much barred from that level of education. So, maybe he got along with women who also had a sort of similar background of their learning politics from living it. At the same time as he is a little bit I wonder if that maybe has something to do with it.

Katie Blizzard

That's a very interesting notion.

Kathryn Gehred 

Maybe that has something to do with it. I have to read more about his relationship with other women in politics. Anything when you were reading this letter that you found relatable?

Katie Blizzard

No, I, I don't receive a lot of personal email, which would be to me the equivalent of receiving a letter like this. So it's not relatable to me to have written communications on these subjects. But I did find the humor style, this sarcasm, this playfully digging on someone that you respect and know well, I found that relatable that's definitely a type of humor that persists today in friendships and so this may may feel like I was uncovering a friendship that could have taken place just a few weeks ago.

Kathryn Gehred 

Katie, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast.

Katie Blizzard

Thank you Katie for having me. I would like to add that I hope that you listeners out there take something away more than that Van Buren was just the eighth president of the United States and great comedic fare for a 90s classic sitcom. Please go look up more Van Buren letters. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, I'll put links to the Martin Van Buren papers that are up online now in the show notes for sure me and Katie will obviously start the next Martin Van Buren gang. And you're all welcome to join. Feel free to check out the show notes. I will put some of the sources that I looked into I will put a link to the Martin Van Buren papers website. And until next time, I am as ever, your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.