Episode 26: Determined To Be Cheerful

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 26 - “Determined To Be Cheerful”
Published on January 4, 2022

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. First of all, thank you so much for your patience with the podcasts, while we were on hiatus. I had a baby in July, which, as I'm sure you understand, cuts down on the amount of free time that I had for things like podcasts. So, for those of you who stick out the wait, you are absolutely the best. Thank you so much as sort of a treat for everyone I was able to bring in as a guest, Alexis Coe The New York Times bestselling author of Alice and Freda, Forever a Murder in Memphis, and You Never Forget Your First which is easily my favorite biography of George Washington. So Alexis, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Alexis Coe

Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm a devoted listener,

Kathryn Gehred 

I have just been overwhelmed by your support for the podcast. Every time that you tweet about it, we get this huge surge in listeners. It's just It's overwhelming, but it's wonderful. So thank you so much.

Alexis Coe

Everyone loves eighteenth and early nineteenth century letters by women. You knew this.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's like you they just have to find it.

Alexis Coe

Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

So, you and I first met when you were working on your biography of Washington, but your first book Alice and Freda, Forever a Murder in Memphis, is very different different time period, different subject matter. So what inspired you to write about George Washington?

Alexis Coe

I will ask you about it was actually the anomaly. I, in graduate school, I focused on citizenship and political history in the twentieth century. And then I, after I left the New York Public Library, which I went to after grad school, I wrote Alice and Freda, and then I started going back on my course, which was political history, and I was at the time hosting a podcast for Audible called Presidents are People Too to with Elliott Kalan, who used to be the head writer of The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. And I think now he writes for Mystery Science Theater. And we would do a President every episode. And I had a way of preparing for it, which was I would read four or five biographies or micro histories and feel like I was getting enough variety, a diversity of perspectives, and I would be able to sort of come out, plan an episode, figure out what needed to be told and feel like I was, you know, fairly confident about my understanding of the president. That didn't happen with Washington. It didn't. It was really frustrating. And I felt like, the more I read about him, the less interested I got, and the less because there was no variety. And it was frustrating to me, and just the way my first book, my second book, and the book I'm writing now, that sort of needles at me, and then I can't stop thinking about it, and I just think, well, it's just going to continue to be like that. And if I if I don't somehow intervene, I'm complicit in this. I had been thinking these ideas about presidential history in general for some time, and had been like quietly writing about it or not so quietly, you know, with like, op eds in the times and such. And I felt like it was just, it was a great vehicle for a lot of the thoughts that I had. There's, there's no greater example of presidential history and sort of the, the beauty and, and the issue is, it has been George Washington. He's the Washington Monument. He's large. He's impressive. He's powerful. But there's nothing there. There's nothing to grab on to. There's nothing to really describe. And it's unfortunate, because complexity isn't a liability. And it's treated that way with Washington. Often, there's such defensiveness around the Founders, and particularly Washington, we want to believe that he was perfect so that we can be perfect.

Kathryn Gehred 

Exactly. You became pretty well known in historical circles, and definitely in History Twitter for describing a certain type of male biographer of George Washington, as "the thigh men of dead history." Can you elaborate on that concept?

Alexis Coe

I had never planned on using that, you know, when you're in grad school, and I knew you learn these terms for these schools of thought, you think, well, maybe one day I'll contribute to that, but probably not. This was not what I had in mind. I had this in brackets for a really long time, because I couldn't I wanted to come up with something. And it just wasn't coming to me. And so you know, I have a dark sense of humor, and all my second readers kept taking brackets and capitalizing it. And, my second readers were really diverse group. It was, you know, my editor, Viking, my husband, who's a magazine editor, Bill at the Washington Papers, he took it out of bracket, like they all loved it. And, the thing with this book is I really wanted to appeal to such a diverse audience, and to have people from different worlds really respond to it. I decided that you know, it was just going to it was going to have to be it stays with you but it is it is really effective. And so I have no regrets.

Kathryn Gehred 

If you haven't read the book, it's, she describes sort of the way that that male biographers write about Washington, and it's totally true. They describe him as this, like really rugged, masculine, manly man. And a lot of them focus on his thighs, like, there's so many descriptions of Washington's muscular thighs, in these really well regarded biographies of Washington, it becomes a thing.

Alexis Coe

It's uncomfortable, it's uncomfortable as a reader. What's funny is, there was this like small, very small group of people who couldn't believe this irreverence that I was showing, and but they never read the book. So they would say things like, can you believe she thinks his body is irrelevant. And like, so much of the book is about how his body is incredibly relevant. It's even, like a really long list of things that survived and to show what that taught him over time and how it played into the revolution. So it was, you're sort of funny, but they they love his body, they really do. And I understand it was graceful, they can't use graceful that they need to they need to use masculine terms. But Turner was really I mean, he talked about like, the thighs, but then he he didn't stop, what was it the jaw muscles were rippling. You know, this is a professional space.

Kathryn Gehred 

I'm glad it stayed in the book, I think you hit a nerve for people who read a lot of presidential biographies, and particularly Washington biographies. And it was just very well put.

Alexis Coe

Thank you.

Kathryn Gehred

Did you enjoy doing historical research from eighteenth century sources? Did you have any challenges with that?

Alexis Coe

Well, you know, my challenges because I emailed you about them. When I was researching, there are parts of early American research that our far easier than any other time period, any other president, Founders Online, The Rotunda, those are the most amazing gifts, and they also are a pretty heavy lift. For every historian, a lot of work has been done with you, for you. And this does not exist with other presidents. So thank you very much. There was a certain part of it that was really convenient in a way that I had never experienced with other projects with, you know, the, my first book, or if I would write like a magazine feature, you know, we'd have to take these trips and cram everything in and eat weird meals for several weeks, and you know, things that increasingly get harder and harder and harder to do is as you get older. So that was great. You know, Washington, I knew a part of the inability to really get close to him was that he is sort of inaccessible, and he was removed. And so I knew that was going to be a challenge. It was such a challenge, and you know, sometimes you would read an exchange he would have, because you can just go through everyone's exchanges on Founders Online. I mean, it even gives you your citation. Your listeners know this, but it's still amazes me, I would read a response from anyone else, and it would be so exciting. Particularly, you know, Elizabeth Willing Powel, or something like people did get a little bit of a rise out of him. And he's, he's quite fun when he's younger, but he becomes more and more controlled and more self conscious, and so that was challenging. That was certainly challenging, really seeing what was there, while reconciling it with all the secondary sources, and what they maintain to be true. Because you can't question everything, but you have to question everything. It's there for the taking. I mean, the the the amount of things that you can still learn about Washington and learn about all these people, if you just have a slightly different perspective, and just even verifying these old stories like about Mary Washington that just really did not checked out at all. That was a revelation. And so I had those moments pretty early on, and I think that kept me going for a long time. But it was certainly it was he's a challenging writer.

Kathryn Gehred 

You would think, you know, there's been so many things written about George Washington, what new could there possibly be, but there are also so many documents, and a lot of those early books that are like, everybody agrees that there the standard histories of Washington were written in a different time when, I don't know, accuracy was less important than sort of patriotism. He was due for a new biography and yours is so accessible like it was, it's a fun read for Washington, it's super accurate, I've really enjoyed reading it. So highly recommend. Again, thank you for being on the podcast and now we can dive into a Martha Washington letter. This week, we're going to be discussing Martha Washington's letter to Mercy Otis Warren of December 26, 1780. I thought it made sense to do a Martha Washington letter but what drew you to pick this specific letter?

Alexis Coe

I think about this letter a lot and I think about it paired with a letter with to family, but Martha tends to compartmentalize, you know, you're on the inside or you're not, and it's very different. With family, she's informal. She's maternal, lots of unsolicited advice, a little scolding a little pushy, a whole lot of anxiety. She's frank, she's bossy, you know, she's sometimes cutting. They're not artful letters. She makes no apologies. And then when she's formal, she's formal. And she's aware that their eyes on her, and she tries to match the correspondent, we don't have a ton of letters between the Washingtons but it seems like they had a good marriage, and she's always trying to show up for him, which we see here. And that wasn't very easy to do, because whether he intended to or not, he keeps moving the goalposts. It's not exactly what she was sold. And so I think this letter combines all the different Martha's which we really don't know, we know even less about her, and then there's the thrill of Mercy Otis Warren, who she respects, but also is very aware of, she's not the

esting her she's aware of, that this letter is going to live on, it's going to live with someone who understands its importance now and in longevity. And I don't think she's being very honest about Washington. But I think she's being very honest about herself here. For all of those reasons. I love it,

Kathryn Gehred 

because Martha can really write a very formal letter when she has to, and it comes back to when she was quite young working with when she was just a widow writing to businesses in England, the merchants in England, she can be very businesslike and formal, or she can be writing to her niece. And it's all one paragraph and just completely informal. Yes. And so this is an example of Martha sort of, as you say, she's writing something that she knows that the person reading it is very well educated. And also, the person reading it is a historian is this is something that's going to be reflect on her and her husband. And so you can tell that's, that's the way she's writing. So sort of the context of what's going on, specifically at this time, December 17, at nine, Martha and Georgia in New York, still the US Capitol. But Martha has only been there for about seven months. She actually in the letter, she describes what's going on in her life. So I won't go too deep into that here. But she is at this point, still figuring out what the First Lady role is going to be. There was a lot of debate about it, because there's the democratic Republicans who don't want the president to be anything like a monarch. And so when Martha's doing something like hosting levees, which was an important political event, they're getting criticized for that, because it's too monarchical. But then also, they need to do something socially. So she's doing her best managing what social life she's able to have. And George Washington at the moment is still trying to get the country to unite around the Constitution. Not all of the states had approved to the Constitution yet at this point, Rhode Island was still holding out there. He was working on a proposal to Congress for a national militia because of Indian depredations, as he says on the borders, that sort of politically what he's working on, which doesn't come up in the letter, but I just think it helps sort of set the scene for what's going on. And Mercy Otis Warren, if you aren't familiar with her, she was one of the very few female political writers of the era. So during the American Revolution, she was getting published in newspapers. And she was known as sort of a political thinker and figure, and she had had a sort of awkward correspondence with Martha Washington since the actual era of the revolution. Versus Warren is a great writer. But she's a great writer, that sort of 18th century very verbose way, which Martha is not at all. And so you can see in their early correspondence, there's a little bit of Martha just not really knowing what to do with it. At the time of this letter, she's living in Milton, Massachusetts, and she was working on publishing a book of poetry. And she was working on an ongoing history of the American Revolution. So she had written a letter a month earlier, trying to restart the correspondence that they had carried on during the American Revolution. And this is Martha's letter responding to that,

who, who works on a book about the revolution and also a collection of poetry? That's mercy.

Kathryn Gehred 

All right. So I will go ahead and read the letter. Martha Washington to Mercy Otis Warren, New York, December 26 1789. My dear madam, your very friendly letter of the 27th of last month has afforded me much more satisfaction than all the formal compliments and empty ceremonies of mere etiquette could possibly have done, I am not apt to forget the feelings that have been inspired by my former society with good acquaintances, nor to be insensible to their expressions of gratitude to the President of the United States, for you know me well enough to do me the justice to believe that I am only fond of what comes from the heart, under a conviction that the demonstrations of respect and affection which have been made to the president originate from that source, I cannot deny that I have taken some interest and pleasure in them. The difficulties which presented themselves to view upon his first entering upon the presidency seem thus to be in some measure surmounted. It is owing to this kindness of our numerous friends in all quarters that my new and enriched for situation is not indeed a burden to me. When I was much younger, I should probably have enjoyed the innocent deities of life as much as most of my age. But I had long since placed all the prospects of my future worldly happiness in the still enjoyment of the fireside at Mount Vernon. I little thought when the war was finished, that any circumstances could possible have happened, which would call the general into public life again. I had anticipated that from this moment, we should have been left to grow old and solitude and tranquility together. That was my dear madam, the first and dearest wish of my heart, but in that I have been disappointed. I will not, however, contemplate with too much regret disappointments that were inevitable, though the generals feelings and my own were perfectly in unison with respect to our predilection for private life. Yet I cannot blame him for having acted according to his ideas of duty and obeying the voice of his country. The consciousness of having attended to do all the good in his power and the pleasure of finding his fellow citizens so well satisfied with the disinterestedness of his conduct will doubtless be some compensation for the great sacrifices which I know he has made, indeed, in his journeys from Mount Vernon to this place, in his late tour through the eastern states, by every public, and by every private information which has come to him, I am persuaded that He has experienced nothing to make him repent of his having acted from what he conceived to be alone a sense of indispensable duty. On the contrary, all his sensibility has been awakened in receiving such repeated and unequivocal proofs of sincere regards from all his countrymen. With respect to myself, I sometimes think the arrangement is not quite as it ought to have been, that I would much rather be at home should occupy a place with which a great many younger and gay or woman would be predictably pleased, as my grandchildren and domestic connections made up a great portion of the Felicity, which I looked for in this world, I shall hardly be able to find any substitute that would indemnify me for the loss of a part of such endearing society. I do not say this because I feel dissatisfied with my present situation. No, God forbid, for everybody and everything conspired to make me as contented as possible in it. Yet I have too much of the vanity of human affairs to expect Felicity from the splendid scenes of public life, I am still determined to be cheerful and to be happy in whatever situation I may be. For I have also learned from experience, that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances. We carry the seeds if the one or the other about with us in our minds wherever we go, I have two of my grandchildren with me who enjoy advantages and points of education and who I trust by the goodness of Providence will continue to be a great blessing to me. My other two grandchildren are with their mother in Virginia. The President's health is quite reestablished by his late journey. Mine is much better than it used to be. I'm sorry to hear that general Warren has been ill. I hope before this time that he may be entirely recovered. We should rejoice to see you both to both I wish the best of heaven's blessings and and my dear madam with esteem and regard your friend and humble servant am Washington

I don't know if people can appreciate who are listening who have not spent a lot of time with the Washington's Martha is a hot mess here she is all over the place. This is this is really a lot for her but but no one else with notice. And for anyone else. This would be a totally normal letter,

Kathryn Gehred 

trying to get Martha to come from Mount Vernon to New York was a struggle. Washington Secretary device layer is trying to lure her to come up to New York by saying that there's really good seafood. They know she likes seafoods. They're like tell her how good the lobsters are.

Shiraz still laying. I mean, all the wives, you know, for a long time showed up a little bit later, but she was really she was quite tardy. And her letters are she's becoming she's like unraveling and in the weeks leading up to it. Oh, yeah. Washington wanted to be general. I think he decided he had to be president. And then he was like, Well, if I must. But he also was really aware that it could go south that he was at a pretty good situation. But I think he knew that he wasn't going to be left alone. I think at the end of the war, he would have said absolutely not good luck. Everyone has to just steady the ship. You can't depend on me for everything. And then I think he was so inundated at home at Mount Vernon. It wasn't a peaceful existence. And he was so troubled by everything. So I think that was I think that was true. He sort of had to warm up to it. And then he was like, Fine, I'm doing this. Martha. I don't think that ever happened. I don't think she ever warmed up to the role,

Kathryn Gehred 

the time period between the revolution and the presidency, where she says there's nothing of news of interest but politic which I don't concern myself about, which I think she's she's actively like, No, I'm not going to read this. I know they're trying to get you. They're trying to drag you back into this, but I will not even pay attention to it. And of course, she is sort of understanding what's going on the part in this letter that strikes me reading aloud that I hadn't really noticed before. She talks about his tour through the eastern states. And so that's well studied, you can find maps of where Washington went, exactly. She's talking about how happy the people are with him.

I think if this is like an example of why he loves her, he would be so happy letter. And he was rarely happy. His standards, were almost unreachable. I think he would have loved this. She's selling everything that he wants, right? There's this always this sentence, I stumble over a little bit about that, in all quarters that my new and unwish for situation is not indeed a burden. To me. It's sort of saying two things. Which one is it? And then this really bums me out. When I was much younger, I should probably have enjoyed the innocent deities of life, as much as most of my age, but I've long since passed the prospects. And she just wants to be a mountain run. And that's absolutely true. She's been completely honest. They tell bold faced lies all the time. But this is, this is not, there's another letter to Fannie on October 22. And they're they're in conversation with each other, the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our disposition, and not upon our circumstances. So she says that, and then, in this letter to her nieces, Mrs. Sims will give you a better account of the fashions than I can. I live a very dull life here. And no nothing that passes in the town. I never go to any public place. Indeed, I am more like a state prisoner than anything else. There is certain bounds set for me and I must not depart from and as I cannot do as I like I am obstinate and stay at home a great deal. She's depressed. This is bed behavior.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think that she is a very sociable woman, as she says, like when I was younger and gear, I would enjoy the society. And this was New York, there's theater, there's culture, but she because she is sort of the new queen, essentially, she's the new First Lady. She can't do these things without them having a deep meaning behind them. And that's not what she wants. She wants to be at home at Mount Vernon hanging out with her grandchildren and telling people that they're going to get worms. So

yeah, when she talks about being a prisoner, it's it's so depressing when any woman from this time period says that because you already think of them as prisoner. But at Mount Vernon, she could walk around, she had all her hobbies, and paying a lot of attention, too much attention perhaps to her grandchildren before that her children. She is a homebody and she's also a Virginian. She partying in Richmond when the Washington's were younger, which they did is very different than New York. She's, she doesn't like the nor Philadelphia gets a little bit better for her. And she does think it's good for the children. But it's true that she doesn't like it. She doesn't like it, she feel and she it's so much pressure. And everyone writes about her in a way. And this is a woman who is used to finery and she likes things. And she likes looking good. I always say don't be fooled by the bonnet, you know, she's quite fashionable. And she also that makes it seem like a sweet grandma. And this woman was not a sweet grandma met much of the time. Yeah, I mean, so that's the thing is, you know, I've read terrible letters from her about enslaved people and friends of ours. When you're a biographer, you have to take them on all the days, not their best days, not their worst days, although I think this was one of her worst. What's important to me is it really moves me and it makes me feel a lot of empathy for her.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think she she really was sort of a state prisoner at this point. And I agree she had been so looking forward to spilling those grandchildren in Mount Vernon for her retirement and then to all of a sudden be thrown back into the fray of politics and being so much the subject of attention. public attention was just really disappointing for her at this point.

I think the vibe just wasn't there for her. It was too much energy going on. But I love just to share like how manic she is. She's like, she's going the Washington's committed to roles. No one No one fell back you you followed through the next generation though. That was the weak narrative while pretty much across the board with the exception of Quinsey. But what I love about this is it's so manic she goes from you know, everyone is still happy with him ever and just completely loved him most popular person, everything is going great between the South and the North, no problems. And then all of a sudden she flips it the next paragraph with respect to myself, I sometimes think the arrangement is not quite as it ought to have been. She's so lonely. He's been away, he takes two tours. And you know, she'd rather be at home and this younger and gay or woman, I think it was also, I do think she felt older. I do think she felt a little bit tired and a little bit frumpy compared to what was going on in New York,

Kathryn Gehred 

once she was married to George Washington as the general of the American Revolution. And she went to join him and all of a sudden, there's parades and things for her when she's arriving different places, and people are giving her fashion advice. That's one of my favorite letters from her. So she says that they she's like, You would have thought it was a very great somebody. She's used to being a Virginia lady, but she's not used to being quite the level of somebody that she suddenly is. And to Martha Washington's credit, she doesn't like it. She doesn't in mercy Otis Warren's letter to her before this. She's writing a letter from sort of a political perspective. And she's basically saying, like, Oh, we're so lucky to have you, and George Washington, because you're not going to be like a king, you're not going to have all of these faults and all of that. So Martha is partially playing into a role. But partially she's like, she doesn't want to be a queen. She doesn't want all this attention. she just, she just wants to be yourself. And she's not a highly educated, fashionable woman of New York or Philadelphia. And she's feeling that a little bit.

It's not just that she's not this young woman with all this energy. It's very different to be a generals wife than it is to be lady Washington. Yes. And she's not enjoying it the way the other political wives do. She's not enjoying it, like Abigail Adams. You know, this is not exciting for her, you know, she seems breathless in every letter, Dolly Madison, a different kind of, of engagement, but still really enjoys it. And you know, then of course, Elizabeth will impel but that's not her. She's not enjoying it. She really doesn't like politics, which is sad for her.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, she didn't want to be a political woman. She didn't want to be an educated woman, she she really was very happy in sort of the traditional role that she was put into as much as anybody can be.

We don't have to say, well, she she wrote history she was she held these salons. It's not my choice occupation, but that's what she preferred. She prefers managing a very large hassled, and also she can't do those things that I think New York is intense. At any point, it's really intense. There is a point in this letter that you've read, where she notes that she has two children, two of her grandchildren, and the other two are with her daughter in law. And it's just like, so funny in a couple of respects. If Martha had it her way, all four would be there. She wants all the babies for herself. If anyone related to her has a baby, she's like, if the Washington's weren't so friendly with Jackie's widow, you'd think this would be an absolute nightmare for her like the woman who has a child it's like the old trope in one of these like period peace movies or series that the woman who has a child out of wedlock with a rich guy and and the mother comes and says like, here's the deal all I'll give him the finest things in life, but you can never see him again. And I'm gonna tell him you don't want no hate you. And that's it, except that they get along and she still comes around.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, the new, it's very much part of the family. I think the fact that she remarries and has another like 10 children and like an insane amount that's like a huge family. That is an interesting story, because we've got sort of the two chosen customers that get to go to Philadelphia and be the little prince and princess of America for a little while. And then there's the two that are left behind with their 10 siblings. In Virginia.

Yeah, How bad would you feel if you were them? You didn't get to go be with the President.

Kathryn Gehred 

And when that when Eliza who wrote that, that episode that the two episodes I did on on Eliza when she goes to visit Martha, she's a little pill. Like she she doesn't sort of take advantage of the society the way that Martha was anticipating or doing it. So anyway, there's I was just also looking at another letter where Martha was writing to Eleanor, who's the chosen one, the princess who got to live in Philadelphia, and she's writing about your lazy sister.

That's the month I know. Your lazy sister who I partially rejected doesn't get to live this extraordinary life. How dare cheese and meanwhile washi I am excited Cassie Cassandra good is writing this book about The cast says, and I'm really excited for it, because I think most of the world doesn't understand this. And I think to understand the Washington's you really have to understand what children were did. You can dislike a lot about Washington, he does a good job.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. To these kids that American to a lot of difficult children and grandchildren.

Martha, He's so lucky that it worked out that way. But they had a nice marriage because he really would have taken anyone who had a decent salary. You name it. 1416 year olds doesn't matter. And sometimes you would get these letters and the fathers would be like, they don't want you. They're not interested in you. And you'd be like, well, I'd like to come around again. I think maybe we could do it. You know, we could we could dance I could come through

Kathryn Gehred 

it was pretty good Kismet for him. And Martha because she was she had done the marrying for money thing. She didn't have to do it again. She she was sitting on so much money. And then here's this one year younger than her, which I think is a big deal. And the fact that she calls him the old man when he's when you're younger than her is. People. I think people forget that people assume he's older than her. But no, she's, that's a joke she's making. But yeah, he turns up, is interested in marrying her. And it's like, okay, I could marry the 65 year old who already has a ton of kids and has a lot of money. Or I could marry this doesn't have quite as much money, but tall, apparently nice size. Yeah, dude, I think it was convenient for both of them this marriage. And it would be insane to say that money did not enter into it. But I do think that they're actually a very good match for each other.

I think he was smitten. She was cute. She came with a lot. It wasn't just the money. She came with children. That was a good thing in early America, it wasn't a bad thing. And he liked them. And they were young enough that could really raise them. They clearly got along. I think if he wasn't in love with her, at first, I think he did. By the end, they made a very good team,

Kathryn Gehred 

when you can see it in something like this letter where she's like she is holding down the fort. This is what George Washington at this point is trying to present himself as disinterested, as reluctant, as the perfect smaller Republican president of a new country. And she is absolutely she has his back in this letter. That's the way she's describing him to somebody who she knows is a political writer, and who she knows is going to eventually be working on a book

and things aren't even bad yet. She has no idea.

Kathryn Gehred 

Things are gonna get much worse.

By the time you know, Jefferson comes around after Washington. She is pretty bitter. Oh, my second question, my second question. Oh, yes, yes. Do you think that Martha knew about the second will? Washington wrote a second will months before he died, he had made the first one with a lawyer and we don't know what it said but probably did not emancipate enslaved people. And he said in this very dramatic way, because you could never make this stuff up. Bring me the wills. She's left the room because she can't take all the bleeding and everything else that's happening, vanish, plies, bones aren't breaking, but I was imagining everything gross happened and overwhelming. So she leaves the room. And then he calls her and she brings the wells. And he says in this very dramatic way, like I'm that one and then burn that one. I don't do you think that she knew what was in the new well,

Kathryn Gehred 

that I don't know.

I'm just never sure she knew. I think he gave her the out. He knew that she wouldn't emancipate them early, she would continue to profit off them. And she wouldn't really think there was a point. Because in her mind, they're great to them. And then she quickly realized that this was a really unsafe position for me, and I completely buy it. And she wrote kind of frightening letters to Bush rod and, and other people. She's, she's worried legitimately, I always think it's sort of a haunted scene in that last year or so in the house, with some family, but she sort of she's got all these memories, and Washington is doing God knows what God is. So it's a pretty

Kathryn Gehred 

grim end of life that she has. She was really, really morning morning, George Washington, she is in a house where she doesn't feel safe. And all of her children have died. And

it's a it's a all of it gets really depressing. Actually, after Washington, he really did.

Kathryn Gehred 

Is there anything that you really wanted to talk about in this letter that we didn't get to in our conversation?

It's her best side. In a lot of ways. You know, when you get to know Martha, you get to know these two sides, and one is pretty unpleasant and vicious at times. pretty brutal, doesn't understand the humanity doesn't recognize any other people. And then you have this where you really see it.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you for picking this letter. I've been meaning to get around to doing this one. And so I was I was glad that this was the one that you suggested. And again, I think there's the there's the duality of have the sort of very conservative, our happiness or misery depends on our dispositions and not upon our circumstances, quote, combined with Martha being stubborn and not leaving the house and complaining to Danny about New York. That is the complexity of this human being. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I was too nervous to invite you until I felt like I had a little bit better grasp on this whole podcast that

was waiting and waiting. Next book is on Kennedy. It's on young Kennedy 1917 to 1956. Right after profiles and courage. And it is been so much fun. But I have to tell you, at first I was like, oh, video and photographs and and typewritten drafts, how amazing. There's a lot of handwriting a lot. I know, I miss you.

Kathryn Gehred 

It is a lot of work reading that handwriting and putting those footnotes in there.

It's very there. I really I really, I really miss you very much appreciate your I always did, but I really do.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you again, thank you. For my listeners, I will link to shownotes a link to these letters and to where you can find Alexes amazing books. And as ever, I am your most obedient and humble sir. Thank you very much.

Kathryn Gehred 

Hi, everybody. This is Catherine, I just wanted to check in really quick and say thank you for listening. I appreciate your patience through the hiatus, and I am happy to be back. I wanted to let you know that we have really good episodes coming up. I've been recording some through the hiatus. So we've got new scholars coming in and talking with me. And fun, interesting letters from fascinating women. Next episode, which will be up in two weeks is a continuation of my Martha Washington's in laws series, which I am very excited about. There's probably four of you that are also excited about it. There's John Costas fans out there. But Just you wait, this is a really interesting one. I wanted to say, again, thank you for listening. It's just me making this podcast in my free time. I love doing it. But it is tough to make the time for it sometimes. So if you're interested in supporting the podcast, please check out our Facebook or Twitter or website to find our CO fi links. We also have a Patreon which I'm thinking of expanding pretty soon to include some bonus content for everyone. Thank you if you're not able to support financially, liking the podcast reviewing the podcast rating us on iTunes, that's all a huge help and maybe telling your feminist historian friends so anyway, I just wanted to check in and say hello again. I missed you. And I am as ever your most obedient and humble servant.