Episode 37 — Wounded The Feelings Of A Lady

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 37 - “Wounded the Feelings of a Lady”
Published on February 7, 2023

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is Women's History podcast where we feature 18th and early 19th century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. This week I'm joined by a colleague of mine that this is the historian and documentary editor Rob Haberman. Robb teaches at Fordham University and spent seven years with the John Jay Papers Project. The recently completed John Jay Papers project. Right?

Robb Haberman

Right.

Kathryn Gehred

Congratulations!

Robb Haberman

Thanks so much.

Kathryn Gehred

Well, welcome to the show. Robb.

Robb Haberman

Thanks for having me.

Kathryn Gehred 

First of all, tell me a little bit about your work with the John Jay Papers and the edition.

Robb Haberman

The John Jay Papers is a selected edition of seven volumes, both in letterpress and in digital formats. The John Jay papers is comprised of both the private correspondence, as well as public papers and records of John Jay. The majority of these documents are housed at the Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Columbia University. Scans of the original documents are available on a database that is free and open access, and term searchable, and it's managed by Columbia University, and, this is called the John Jay Papers image database. So, we have seven volumes that cover the years from 1760, when John Jay was a teenager, up through his death in 1829. Again, these are available as letterpress volumes via the University of Virginia Press, and they are also, at least as of now, the first six volumes are also available online with the National Archives Founders Online Database. My work with the John Jay papers was in the role as Associate Editor. And my work mostly consisted of transcribing, proofing, and annotating the documents that went into the volume. In addition to this, I also did a lot of editing, I helped out with our blog and other social media and publicity work. And when the project finished up in 2021, I helped organize and curate the conference and accompanying exhibit "In service to the nation, the Life and Legacy of John Jay." And, we do have a smaller version of this exhibit that is currently online. 

Kathryn Gehred 

For our listeners who might not be familiar, who was John Jay? What's something that you wish more people knew about? Jay? And sort of? Could you introduce him a little bit?

Robb Haberman

Sure. So I'm going to give a fairly brief overview of John Jays public service, because if I was to cover, you know, thoroughly what the work he did on behalf of New York, and the United States, this would be the entire podcast. So John Jay, he belongs to the Jay's are a an influential and wealthy family from New York. John Jay was born in 1745. As a young man, he attends King's College, as befitting his station. And, he goes on to have a very distinguished career as a politician, statesman, diplomat, and judge, and I really only want to focus on what I consider are his four main contributions to the founding of the United States. First, he played a key role in negotiating two treaties with Britain, the first being the 1783 Treaty of Paris. This was the agreement that ended the Revolutionary War. And then a little over a decade later, he is involved in drawing up in agreement with British diplomats in 1794, this was when Britain and the United States are on the cusp of war and this was known as the Jay Treaty. Secondly, he plays a key role in publicizing his support for the constitution of 1787. And this was primarily through his authorship of five of the Federalist essays that he co-wrote with Hamilton and Madison. Third, he was tapped by Washington to serve as the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, a position which he held during the early 1790s. And fourthly, he completed his public service with a tenure as governor of New York State, he served two terms from 1795 to 1801. And I guess if there's one thing that I wish more people knew about John Jay, this is actually in relation to his wife, Sarah Livingston Jay. It's the fact that John Jay actually had some very bad relations with many of his wife's relatives. He did not get along with certain members of the Livingston family. This includes Henry Brockholst Livingston, who served as his secretary, particularly while Jay was in Spain trying to gain support from the Spanish crown for the Patriot cause. And also, John Jay had a feud with Robert R. Livingston, the chancellor, it's really a sad situation because he Livingston were really close buddies during their college years, and they went on to open a law practice together, and then they have this falling out during the Revolution. And they're actually rivals in the post Revolutionary era as well. They ran against each other for the governorship in 1795. And, they it's it's it's really nasty campaign, because Livingston, Robert R. Livingston and his followers, they're slinging all this this mud at John Jay saying really nasty things about him, not just politically about but about his personal character, as well. And, it's just so strange to me, because John Jay has this very close intimate relation with Sarah Livingston Jay. And it must have been really awkward at family get togethers.

Kathryn Gehred 

Is that his brother-in-law?

Robb Haberman

Yeah, well, Robert Livingston is a cousin. Henry Brockholst Livingston is a younger brother, of Sarah Livingston Jay. 

Kathryn Gehred 

It has room to get very personal and messy if you've got that. It's time for the John Jay musical. It sounds like.

Robb Haberman

 Oh, yes, please.

Kathryn Gehred 

We're not doing a John Jay letter. Today we're doing Sarah Livingston Jay. Tell me a little bit about Sarah.

Robb Haberman

Sarah Livingston, like John Jay, stems from an influential and prominent family. So she's born in 1756, and her family is very active in New York and New Jersey politics. So for instance, her father is Governor of New Jersey, and she meets John Jay, while he is a lawyer in New York City, and they have their wedding at Liberty Hall, which is the Livingston family at estate. And, one thing that is striking about their relationship is, as John Jay is serving in its various capacities during the revolution, he's working on the defense of New York, and he later served as president of Continental Congress, and then he becomes his diplomatic mission, and then goes on from there holding various posts in the federal government. What's interesting is during these decades, the couple spend so much time apart. And Sarah Livingston Jay is really on her own, raising the five children, helping to manage the family household, and financial affairs. And at this time, she also leads a very active social life. And, while she is with John Jay, in New York City, she hosts many influential dinners and social gatherings, which are attended by important diplomats and dignitaries. So, in this role as hostess, she really is performing invaluable political service for the new nation. I had mentioned earlier that the couple lived apart for much of the Revolutionary Era. And if you look at their letters from the mid 1770s, up till Jays retirement in 1801, they almost always expressed sentiments like, I cannot wait until we are done with public life, and we can spend our remaining years together in retirement. It's really sad that after Jay retires, following his governorship of New York, the couple retire to their family estate in Bedford, New York. It's a farm and house located in the countryside. And now you think, you know, okay, they can live out their lives happily, and it's very sad that this is not the case. A year following Jays retirement Sarah Livingston Jay falls ill and dies in 1802. So, the time that they get to spend together in their golden years, as a retired couple, unfortunately, is very short.

Kathryn Gehred 

Do you have a lot of their correspondence back and forth from Sarah? 

Robb Haberman

Oh yes! Oh, yes, there are several letters. And they are quite close, I think it was, I would compare their marriage to John and Abigail Adams.

Kathryn Gehred 

Ah!

Robb Haberman

They were very close companions, very intimate in their letters. And in the personal expressions. Again, it is there is a such so it's so strongly articulated the love that they have for one another, and also the fact that they are being kept apart by his public duties. This is why again, I think it's so poignant, and so difficult when reading these letters, that knowing that the time that they actually do spend together in retirement is so brief.

Kathryn Gehred 

So the letter that we're reading today is from 1794. And when does he end up retiring?

Robb Haberman

In June of 1801. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, all right. So this is a letter from Sarah Livingston Jay to Samuel Lyon, who is Samuel Lyon.

Robb Haberman

So Samuel Lyon is overseeing the construction and management of the Jay family home and farm in Bedford. Right around 1790, maybe a little bit earlier, construction had begun on this estate, and Samuel Lyon is chosen to basically serve as the overseer for the construction of the estate, and he's also managing Jay's various businesses that he has going in Bedford, at this time. Lyon had served as an officer in the Continental Army, and I should mention, he was born in 1747.

Kathryn Gehred 

At this time, 1794, what's going on in Sarah's life? And do we know anything about what's going on in Samuel Lyon's life at this point?

Robb Haberman

Yes. So with Sarah Livingston Jay, she is having a, I think, a fairly difficult time, in that John Jay is once again away from home. At this time, he is in London, negotiating a treaty with Britain, he has been away for several months, so she has the responsibility in not only of taking care of the household, she's in New York City at this time, but also she shares the responsibility with her eldest son Peter Augustus Jay, and nephew, Peter Jay Monroe, of overseeing family finances, as well as this new estate that is being built in Bedford. As far as Samuel Lyon goes, I don't know that much about his personal life at this time, other than to say, based on the letters I've read, it does seem like he recently has lost his spouse.

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh. Before we dive into the document, in your opinion, how would you describe Sara Livingston Jays personality?

Robb Haberman

Just based on the letters and what I've read of descriptions of her, she is described as very friendly, very charming. Looking at her letters, this certainly comes across. Most of the letters are to family members, very kind, very courteous, compassionate individual that certainly comes across in the letters. One period when they are living together is when John Jay goes to Spain, right around 1780. Although it must have eased her burden to actually be with her husband she was, still especially in Spain, undergoing extensive hardships that there was a lot of traveling on the road and the description of the hotels and accommodations where they're staying at and the food that they're having at these various inns and taverns. It sounds pretty horrible. And it's not I mean, it's not just Sarah Jay who's writing this. It's John Jay himself and other members of his retinue that are complaining about all the bugs and mice that they come across in their hotel rooms, that traveling is also exhausting them because they're not being formally received by the Spanish court. And, this takes a toll on Sarah Livingston Jay. In fact, one of her children who is born a daughter dies soon after her birth. And I think part of this is because of the difficult conditions of being on the road. And, one interesting thing, I mean, just to give you a sense of her character, as well, is that one of the Spanish officials writes to a colleague and mentioned that if you want to get to John Jay, if you want to convince him, it is recommended that you become friendly with Sarah Livingston Jay.

Kathryn Gehred

Nice.

Robb Haberman

So it shows you, I mean, this gives you an idea, the sway the influence that she has with her husband.

Kathryn Gehred 

He clearly has some respect for her and her opinions.

Robb Haberman

Oh, definitely. She helps obtain political information for John Jay as well. So for instance, while he's serving as Chief Justice of the United States, he's writing circuit throughout New England. At the same time, this is in 1792, he's running for Governor of New York State, and ultimately, he's unsuccessful in this particular election. But, while he is you know riding circuit, she is writing letters to him faithfully, in which she's providing updates on the political situation and the various rumors and political information that she is hearing about his opponent, and about how Jay's campaign is faring.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think that's pretty good background. I think you sort of understand what's going on with Sarah and John Jay and Samuel Lyon lives, so let's just dig into the document, Sarah Livingston Jay to Samuel Lyon, 14th November 1794.

"Sir, I have received your letter of the 11th instant and I'm obliged to you for the offer of potatoes and turnips. But as I've already engaged some, will not trouble you for any. The ox can be sent down whenever a safe and convenient opportunity offers. I could wish Major you're literally the 11th instant had been unaccompanied by the one of the 10th. As I am convinced you have yourself too much sensibility to reflect without regret on having wounded the feelings of a lady who has invariably treated you with cordiality and politeness. After your son had left to New York on a visit to his family, I met a gentleman and company who had been to the White Plains, and they're seen a person from Bedford, who told him he believed I would be disappointed if I expected to have the horses to use as you had been otherwise engaged and had not turned your attention to them. I told the gentleman that your son had promised to send them down immediately, and that if they were not fit to use I should have them broke in New York, when your son returned and told me that you said it would be unsafe for me to put them to the carriage. I repeated to him what I had heard, and added that I was sorry you had been troubled with them as you had not had time to attend to them, and that since by that I had likewise been deprived of the use of them at a season when writing would have been pleasant and beneficial to me and my children. That, sir, is the whole of what I told your son. Mr. Jay or the farm were not mentioned and the word pardon neither entered my thoughts nor escaped my lips. I leave you sir, to judge whether my observation merited the strictures you thought proper to make. Though Mr. Jay could not have been aware of many inconveniences, injuries and anxieties that would be the consequences of his acceptance of the mission which would necessarily take him 3000 miles from his family. Yet, I am well convinced asperities from user to his solitary wife never entered his calculations. It is unnecessary Major to trouble you with further observations should Mr. Jay's labors abroad be again blessed to this country the sacrifices of his long absence cost his family shall be submitted to without murmuring. Sarah Jay."

I really enjoyed this letter when you sent it to me. For stuff just the opening when she says "I will not accept your potatoes and turnips."

Robb Haberman

You know that really sets the tone for the letter right? You know, it's only going downhill from there.

Kathryn Gehred 

Alright, so to you what strikes you about this letter? 

Robb Haberman

Well, this is just to me, so different in tone, demeanor and content. Then the other correspondence that I view of Sara Livingston Jay's letters. She has, I have never seen her use such strong language or express such aggressive sentiments before in her letters. And, this was just this was quite striking to me and for this reason really stood out.

Kathryn Gehred 

He has certainly wronged her. He has wounded her, but it's I've just wanted to make sure I understand the situation. Is it that that he was supposed to have her horses ready to take her around in a carriage that he was like breaking in her horses? And he hasn't got it done yet? Is that the situation? 

Robb Haberman

Yes, exactly. And she had written to him months ago, in August, and she says in this earlier letter, you know, I hope to have the horses down here for riding season, I hope you can have them broken in, and then bring them down to New York City. So, he has the horses in Bedford, and she is waiting for him to actually break them in, and then bring them down, so they could be used for drawing a carriage. And alas, it does not, it does not happen. This way. He does not deliver the horses, and hence we have a fairly nasty exchange.

Kathryn Gehred 

But she's mad at him for not breaking in the horses. But she's also taking it a little bit personally.

Robb Haberman

Yeah. And I think it also has to do with the letter that he sent her on the 10th, which we do have a copy of. And that letter is oh, there's a lot of cutting remarks and observations in there. Would you like to hear some of the choicest quotes?

Kathryn Gehred 

Absolutely, yes. 

Robb Haberman

Okay. So this is the letter from John Lyon, in response to an earlier letter that she had written to him, which unfortunately, I haven't been able to track down. But in Samuel Lyon letter of November 10, he starts out in one of its opening passages, he states,

"I had been tried, condemned and sentenced to never to be forgiven neither by, you know, Chief Justice Jay for a crime unheard, which even criminals have a right to. I think, from my part, such a harsh judgment is premature."

So, I mean, his letter, he wrote, when he says, you know, "I've been tried, condemned and sentenced, to never be forgiven," he is really, he's not holding back with his feelings either. And, he goes on to say to "Whoever fed you what he claims is false information about the horses aren't ready to be brought down," et cetera. He calls this individual "a liar, a rascal and a villain." And, Samuel Lyon actually goes on to say that "I will challenge this individual to a duel to restore my honor." He says he, there's a line in the letter, he says, "Let him come forward with his false assertion, if you dare, and I will defend it on the risk of my life." So this has really struck a nerve. And then he goes on with this, I found to be a very cutting remark where he says, "Had the Honorable John Jay been at home, I am confident this would not have happened. Hearsay would not draw a hasty and harsh judgment." So, he's kind of, you know in this way, he saying, John Jay has much better sensibility and judgment than you do. And, you know, he would not have sent me such a hostile letter. And, there's a couple more quotes I just have to throw out there. And, and in this letter, and I thought, this is really telling as well, he says, "Madam, although I am your servant, I'm not your slave. I was freeborn. And, as such remain therefore shall not ask you part of it."

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh!

Robb Haberman

He's really digging in here. Don't expect an apology from me, and it's not my fault. And then he concludes, and I think this is also really damning as well, he goes, he'll terminate his contract with the Jay family. And, he offers to settle up accounts with them in May. And he says, you know, I'll no longer oversee the Jay property in Bedford. And, I've looked at the John Jay accounts, and it's interesting that it May 7, May 1, 1795. Yeah. actually does settle up his accounts. However, if he really had left their service, it is only temporary. Because, by the early 1800s, his name appears in their ledgers.

Kathryn Gehred

Okay.

Robb Haberman

And he's, again performing various services for the Jay family. But my sense is that he doesn't have as close a relation with John Jay, or the John Jay Family, following this episode, and just for instance, there's a letter where Peter Jay Monroe is writing to John Jay, and I think it's about 1797. And he goes, Oh, I ran into Samuel Lyon, but it really wasn't a very friendly encounter, he treated me very coldly. And John Jay responds and says, "yes, that has been his character of late." So, I think that there is I mean, this episode that occurs between Samuel Lyon and Sarah Livingston Jay, I think does have repercussions future repercussions.

Kathryn Gehred 

This whole exchange, what it makes me think of is like, websites like Angie's list where you can write how like you hired a carpenter, and you can write a review. This makes me feel like she's written a bad review of somebody on their Facebook page, and then the Facebook owner like response with like, a really long tirade afterwards.

Robb Haberman

Definitely, definitely.

Kathryn Gehred

This is making me think of a little bit because, I mean, she was clearly not happy, but for him to challenge someone to a duel and call somebody a villain, like those are fighting words.

Robb Haberman

And you know what, you're absolutely right to that. I think this was also not this was definitely not confined just to Sarah Livingston Jay and Samuel Lyon. I mean, Samuel Lyon's son, John Lyon, who was also working on the Jay estate, he was overseeing the construction of a mill, he became involved as well. And I know Sarah Livingston Jay wrote to some of her other family members about this episode too. So, I think this was somewhat of a public matter among the Jay family and their friends, their social circles, and probably in Bedford as well, it got quite, it quite nasty

Kathryn Gehred 

I am and imagine if somebody as prominent as the Jays start saying that you're not a good person to hire, that probably would have pretty big impact on his ability to get other work.

Robb Haberman

Right. And in his, in his defense, he does have a good reason, or at least a partial reason for why these horses are not broken in and delivered. He mentioned that his son, while I believe in New York City, was passed a counterfeit bill, which then he went on and used in a transaction, and he actually gets brought up on charges for it. And, this case goes before the New York Supreme Court. So, Samuel Lyon has to leave Bedford and come down to New York City, and try to help clear his son's name. Try to figure out who the individual is who passed this counterfeit bill to John Lyon, and help organize his son's defense. Samuel Lyon does mention that Sarah Livingston Jay he's saying, 'look, this is taking up a lot of my time, and this is why, you know, I was unable to get to your horses.'

Kathryn Gehred 

But, she wants to go on a carriage ride, and understand it's very important.

Robb Haberman

And I think maybe also some of her complaints that are leveled against Samuel Lyon, and is that he doesn't provide her with updates, per se, he doesn't let her know at the time that, 'hey, I'm having these my son's having these problems, I have to help him out.' And, I think that she probably would have been much more understanding, if he had kept an open line of communications with her.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think he he has a fair point where she's talking about she's like,' I met a gentleman who had been to White Plains, and they're seeing another person from Bedford who told him he believed' it's like, she's totally hearing things through the grapevine.

Robb Haberman

Right, right. Right.

Kathryn Gehred

He does have a point that's like, 'oh, so you just heard from some random guy wasn't doing my job.' I could see being upset by that.

Robb Haberman

Right, right, right. But at the same time, I think this would for someone like Sarah Livingston Jay this would be a I think it wouldn't be unheard of for her to receive information like the second hand, or third hand of you know, news specifically that's coming out that is outside of New York City. In this, I think she would have received other types of information about, you know, how various family members or friends are doing in a similar manner.

Kathryn Gehred 

She mentioned in the letter that her husband's not here, and she's on her own. Do you think he was slightly taking advantage of her because she was on her own, or do you think it was just like, his life got complicated, and he just didn't get to these horses?

Robb Haberman

You know, that certainly, as you point out, is implied in her letter where, you know, and she says, closer to where, before she signs off, you know, she mentions, her husband is thousands of miles away forming this important public service, and Samuel Lyon, I think she's inferring is, is taking advantage of this situation and taking advantage of the fact that she is a woman who is trying to manage her family affairs, and the estate in Bedford that certainly comes across in, you know, in terms of is Lion taking her seriously. I think he is, but at the same time, I don't think he's treating her the same way, respectfully as he would John Jay. If this was a letter to John Jay, I doubt he would use such a tone, even if John Jay had level the same criticisms against him. And, I think that there is that that was a mark of maybe 'disrespect' is too strong a word. But you know, he does not write to her for some time with an update of the situation. And that certainly would have been, you know, the, I think the correct thing to do for this time for a person who's performing the duties that he is.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, it's kind of a it's almost like a petulant response, which I agree, I don't think he would write this letter to judge to, Judge John Jay to Justice John Jay.

Robb Haberman

Yeah. And it's interesting, too, because in a letter that's written to John Lyon, Samuel's son, Sarah Livingston Jay she doesn't back down from what she's written, but I mean, she does say she says, Okay, this has been a massive misunderstanding. And, your father has acted in this agitated and somewhat out of control manner. And, you know, she says that, look, I never said that his action was unforgivable. She said, there is this, you know, serious delay in the delivery of the horses. But he is reading too much into my letter. I mean, he's, she's basically saying he's making up this accusation that Sarah Livingston Jay had said, this is an unforgivable action taken. So she's not, I mean, she's holding her she's holding her ground.

Kathryn Gehred 

All he had to do was apologize. He didn't, he says that line, like, I'm, I'm not a slave. But she's like, Oh, okay. All right, like, slavery is still around. All you had to do was say, Sorry, I'll do better next time. I think that would be a perfectly legitimate response to her first letter, but he really seems to have dug his heels in.

Robb Haberman

You know, it seems to me with this exchange of letters that takes place, it's like, both of them take the nuclear option, you know, instead of, you know, maybe drawing back a little and trying to work things out. They both really, I think are going at one another as much as a person like Samuel Lyon can to a woman of such high status like Sarah Livingstone Jay.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, it's very personal and emotional. It was surprisingly messy for a letter about horses.

Robb Haberman

Yes, Yes, on both accounts, yeah. It's interesting because he really takes this to heart. I mean, like, like you like you mentioned the fact that he's willing to fight a duel over this, and then he quits his position.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Robb Haberman

As I said he the he chooses the nuclear option.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's got to be awkward.

Robb Haberman

Oh yes.

Kathryn Gehred

After this,

Robb Haberman

Most of the letters that I have found following this particular episode, are mostly between the Jays and John Lyon, who actually lives nearby the Jay estate in Bedford. His home is right on a borders the property John Lyon's son is still working for the family, and they seem to get along pretty well. But, Samuel Lyon doesn't show up to often in the, I mean, he does you do see his name, as I said in some of the financial records and even in some of the epistolary exchanges, they're fairly brief, as well and almost all about, you know, finances or matters of business. And, I think the, 'hey, how's the family?' 'How's the new cow working out for you?' You know, things like that. Don't make it into the letters following this episode.

Kathryn Gehred 

So, I just want to thank you for sending me this particular letter and not one that's like more politically significant, because this is the stuff I really like.

Robb Haberman

Yeah, yeah, I think this is I hate to say, it's so much fun, honestly, to read this, because as I said, this, this shows a side of Sarah Livingston Jay, that I had not come across. Yeah, and it shows how serious she takes her responsibilities as well, because I'm sure that she applies the same type of concern and serious attitude towards other aspects of Jay family business and financial transactions that are going on. So, it does seem that Jay left the family affairs, you know that he has a very capable manager in Sarah Livingston Jay.

Kathryn Gehred

Definitely.

Robb Haberman

No one's going to pull one, pull a fast one on her. Definitely. Again, I appreciate that you accepted this letter for discussion, because it's part of this broader exchange. And, it might seem so trivial. Oh, these carriage horses aren't broken in or not delivered, but wow, does it, you know, really strike a chord with the people involved.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, yeah. It's it's just like a really interesting little historical incident. So, thank you Robb, so much for coming on the podcast. It's wonderful to have you.

Robb Haberman

I very much enjoyed chatting with you, and thanks for having me on the podcast. This was a wonderful opportunity to share what I know about Sarah Livingston Jay.

Kathryn Gehred 

For people who want to access these letters, I know you mentioned at the beginning, but just like one more little plug, where can people go to see more of the Jay papers project? Sure.

Robb Haberman

So the actual the original documents have been scanned, and are available on the John Jay papers image database, which is a free open access and term searchable database. And, the volumes of the John Jay papers are also available on the National Archives Founders Online.

Kathryn Gehred 

So go and search these names and have fun online, everybody.

Robb Haberman

Yes, please.

Kathryn Gehred

I'll put links in the show notes. To my listeners, thank you so much for listening. I am as ever, your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.