Episode 54: I Am Frightened When I Look At Her

Kathryn Gehred  00:00

This episode of Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant is supported by the Dr. Scholl Foundation. Hello and welcome to Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant. This is a women's history podcast where we feature 18th and early 19th century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host. Kathryn Gehred belongs. Long time listeners of the podcast will recognize today's guest documentary editor and friend of the show, Mary Wigge. I often mention on the show that I was one of the co-editors of the Papers of Martha Washington, and Mary was one of the other co-editors. So Hello Mary. Welcome to the show.

Mary Wigge  00:39

Hi Katie. It's good to be back.

Kathryn Gehred  00:41

Thank you so much for coming on.

Mary Wigge  00:42

Of course

Kathryn Gehred  00:43

So Mary, tell me what you're currently working on.

Mary Wigge  00:47

I'm with the Papers of James Madison, so specifically working on the Secretary of State Series, and we are about to publish volume 14 of that series. So that time frame is around 1807 to 1808 so bit later than the letter that we're going to be discussing.

Kathryn Gehred  01:06

Gotcha. What's going on with little Jimmy in 1807?

Mary Wigge  01:11

1807 let's see where to begin. Basically, Napoleon is taking control and dominating nearly all of Europe, and there's no help from Great Britain. So more and more of American mercantile ships are getting impressed, and basically the US is not getting much respect and not getting any negotiations on their treaties that they're attempting.

Kathryn Gehred  01:35

I've talked about this on the show, but it's hard to over emphasize how when you're working as a documentary editor, you get this incredibly in depth knowledge of like, one year of someone's life. It's hard to explain the level of knowledge that you end up getting and then how much of it is, sort of like you just need to forget, because there's no use for it. But yeah, you can feel like you're, like, living in the year that you're working on when you get that deep into it.

Mary Wigge  02:00

Yeah and I already started working on, at least assisting in translating a couple of letters from 1808, so by this point, the Spanish king, King Charles, has abdicated the throne, and now it's going to go to his son, but then Napoleon inserts his brother. So I'm already like ahead, and now I've forgotten everything from 1807.

Kathryn Gehred  02:25

It's super interesting. I'm glad to bring you back in I really wanted to talk about a letter from Lucy Flecker Knox. When people mentioned what were women doing in the American Revolutionary War, she often comes up as an example because she and her husband, General Henry Knox, kept up this really great correspondence while he was off doing military things, and she was at home. And she's an interesting person. She was a friend of Martha Washington, so we first sort of came across her while we were working on the Martha volume. I thought that your take on Lucy would be really helpful.

Mary Wigge  03:01

Hopefully I'm not too harsh on her. I think I have a better perspective of her now than I did when we were working on the Martha Washington letters.

Kathryn Gehred  03:10

All right, so the letter we're going to be talking about today is from Lucy Lucy Flucker Knox, which I'm not too mature to say that part of my obsession with Lucy Flucker Knox, it's just because her maiden name is Flucker. I just did a double take when I saw that for the first time, and then I was like, Who is this person? And I found out that she's very interesting. But yeah, so we're gonna be talking about a letter from Lucy Flucker Knox to her husband, Henry Knox. Henry Knox is the Boston bookstore owner turned commander of the artillery of the Continental Army. He was also the Secretary of War from 1785 to 1794 so a lot of people know a lot about Henry Knox, but who's his wife, Mary? Could you introduce us to her?

Mary Wigge  03:53

Everyone welcome to Lucy, who is the middle child of a very wealthy, opulent Tory family. She's the daughter of Thomas Flucker Senior and Hannah Waldo Flucker. These are great names. She's born in Boston around 1756 so when she's growing up, essentially, she's living in a city that's growing in opposition to British and parliamentary authority. Of course, it's a bit difficult with the fact that her father, Thomas, Sr, is a Royal Provincial Secretary of Massachusetts, not to mention he's also one of the wealthiest merchants in Boston. And on top of that, her mother, Hannah, was the daughter of esteemed British Brigadier General Samuel Waldo that had accumulated a large estate that later down the line, Henry and Lucy inherit a portion of it, and it becomes known as the Waldo Patent, and it's now a good chunk of Maine. So that's why they move up to Thomaston, Maine after Henry retires from being the Secretary of War. Kind of like Martha, we don't really know her education, but it's clearly substantial. So like you can assume that Lucy was taught by maybe tutors, her handwriting is quite formal and, quite frankly, much prettier than Martha Washington's ever was,

Kathryn Gehred  05:18

And you can see a lot of her handwriting on the Gilder Lehrman website, I can probably link to where this letter is, and you can get a look at it.

Mary Wigge  05:25

You can tell that she was raised in wealth, luxury and comfort, essentially. And then she meets Henry. So by the time that she marries Henry, it's 1774 so she's around 18, maybe 17, and she hardly has any of her family support, and actually, her father permits the marriage, but it was was really thanks to her uncle who comes in and convinces him that Henry Knox is not such a bad character. However, her parents do not attend the wedding.

Kathryn Gehred  05:55

Ooh

Mary Wigge  05:56

Yeah, they, in fact, I don't think she sees them at her wedding, and they do not visit afterwards, and then they move back to England, so I don't think she ever sees them after that. Wow. But her sister and her Aunt Waldo, as it's referred probably Sarah Irving. Waldo attended her wedding as well as her uncle Isaac Winslow, and he walks her down the aisle gives her away. And so it made me think of you, because it made me think of John Custis and Martha Washington trying to convince him that she wasn't essentially just a gold digger, but essentially Thomas Flucker Sr was not really thrilled with the idea of Henry Knox being married to his daughter, Henry Knox. Well, he was a tradesman. He was an orphaned son. He didn't really come from means of any kind. He did not have a formal education.

Kathryn Gehred  06:52

He was a bookseller.

Mary Wigge  06:53

He was a bookseller.

Kathryn Gehred  06:54

And according to one of the old, probably quite inaccurate articles I read about him, he was very handsome and had a military stance, the way that they describe all of these men. Yes, so when I was first trying to research her, there's not a lot of there's a little bit, but there's not a lot of academic writing about her. One of the early books that talks about LucyFlucker Knox, it's an example of the way that women's history is often written in the early 1900s it's from the Pioneer Mothers of America, which, there's a lot of sort of politics just in the title of the book, from the Pioneer Mothers of America. But this is the opening quote of the description of her. There was a stir among the daughters and Dames of Boston town when one day in 1774 the word was spread that Lucy Flucker, the pretty and petted daughter of Secretary Thomas flucker of the Royal Province of Massachusetts, had defied parental authority and married Henry Knox, the bookseller. Not that Henry Knox wasn't an eligible young man, good enough for any girl, but he was in trade. It just cracks me up. I like the way that that's written. It's just, like, so funny to me. When you start reading a source like that, you have to have, like, the biggest grain of salt About everything in it imaginable, absolutely.

Mary Wigge  08:09

Oh man, yeah, but it's not far off from what I've I mean, that's nearly every other

Kathryn Gehred  08:17

Yeah, she's not wrong.

Mary Wigge  08:19

She's not wrong. But it is interesting, because, okay, so Henry Knox really makes a name for himself, because first he's working at a bookstore under the tutelage and kind of learning the trade in a well known bookstore in the heart of Boston, and then he opens his own bookstore, and he's only 21

Kathryn Gehred  08:39

Wow.

Mary Wigge  08:39

Yeah, yeah, he's moving up fast, and he was a good catch. I would say,

Kathryn Gehred  08:44

Nice. Well, I'm rooting for them. My other just brief complaint before we dive in, is, if you Google Lucy Flucker Knox, a lot of pictures show up that are not of her, they're of other people. But there is a silhouette of her, which is a little bit harder to find. Mary, could you describe what the silhouette of Lucy Lucy Flucker Knox looks like?

Mary Wigge  09:06

It's incredible. She's a bit of the larger side just from her face expression and her chest like she's just very plump, and then her hair stands like at least a foot high, and then on top of that, you have a ridiculous top hat, at least from the silhouette. That's how it appears. But it's great.

Kathryn Gehred  09:30

It's like make my hair four and a half feet tall, and then put a full like snowman top hat on top of it.

Mary Wigge  09:38

It's so good, so good. I don't want to bash Lucy at all, as I said, but there is an incredible quote I have to share this with you, because the first thing I did when you asked me to, like, revisit Lucy and Henry Knox, I just went through will Rotunda and Founders Online and look at the other papers to see. What had been written about her, if there was any mention of the Knox's, and specifically of Lucy. And this one's incredible, and it's bit harsh, but it's incredible. So it's Abigail Adams Smith to Abigail Adams, and this is in 1788 so she says, "General and Mrs. Knox have been very polite and attentive to us. Mrs. Knox is much altered from the character she used to have. She is neat in her dress, attentive to her family, and very fond of her children. But her size is enormous. I'm frightened when I look at her. I verily believe that her waist is as large as three of yours, at least." I burst out laughing.

Kathryn Gehred  10:43

Abigail!

Mary Wigge  10:44

It was so mean. I couldn't believe it. I was I had never actually read such a harsh critique of another woman. I was both surprised and a bit stunned.

Kathryn Gehred  10:55

All right, well, I'm gonna come here in defense of Lucy Flucker Knox, she had a hard youth, and she could be as big as she wants, Abigail Adams. Come on!

Mary Wigge  11:04

You know what? Also I didn't even mention, it does not get any easier immediately after they marry, because, like, consider they get married in 1774 and then the next year is the beginning of the American Revolution, and then her primary family leaves, just leaves Boston, goes back across the ocean to London, and her husband leaves to go fight against the British. So she's left all alone. Not an easy life.

Kathryn Gehred  11:34

This is a good letter to talk about that for her. So to get down to the specifics of this specific letter. She writes it to Henry Knox, 23rd August, 1777, so at this point in the American Revolution, Knox, again, I talked about him. He was a bookseller. He was just like interested in military things. He read a lot about things like artillery. And from that, he was actually incredibly talented. I can see why he's such a popular figure, because it's sort of that classic American, not exactly bootstraps, but like he wasn't born into the top of Boston Society. He just read a lot about the military, and then when a war broke out, he was able to use that knowledge helpfully. So he sort of famously proved his medal as artillery commander in the winter of 1775 to 1776 when he managed to transport an insane amount of heavy weaponry that had been captured at Fort Ticonderoga all the way to where Washington needed it, outside of Boston, which people didn't think was possible. And it just shows that he was really good at the side of the military that's moving things from point A to point B, which is so important. So at this exact moment, he's with Washington in Philadelphia, and George Washington is trying desperately to keep Philadelphia in American hands. They have just met the Marquita Lafayette, who sort of describes this time period in his book. And the battle of Brandywine has not happened yet, but will be coming soon, on September 11. So Knox is in and around the Philadelphia area at the time that she's writing this, where Lucy is at home in Boston writing to him, and at the exact moment that she writes him on the Yeah, the 23rd Knox wrote to Lucy on the 25th that the Continental Army had marched through Philadelphia on the night of August 23 so the night that she wrote this letter and astonished the Tories with their respectability, but he hadn't been there because he'd been 40 miles away to purchase some things for my dear, dear Lucy. So she's talking about being all alone and forgotten, but he was really thinking about her literally the exact night that she's writing this letter, which I thought was kind of cute.

Mary Wigge  13:43

It is cute. I should also add that most recently also is the loss of Fort Ticonderoga, but also the Saratoga Campaign, in which the American forces defeat the British forces under General John Burgoyne. So it's both a medley of some losses, some wins. I should also mention, with a little research earlier, I want to say, like in the spring of '77 Lucy and her daughter get inoculated from smallpox because she was starting to hear that it was spreading, especially in the military encampments, and she's desperately always trying to go visit Henry, or at least have him come home. She's dying to see him.

Kathryn Gehred  14:32

That's good. It's smart to get the smallpox inoculation.

Mary Wigge  14:35

And then around also this time, I believe she's maintaining home and child. I think they just have one girl at this point, Lucy, Lucy junior, I guess we could call her. She's also trying to assume control of her parents' Boston house and property, because it was around this time that Continental Congress were trying to acquire any property owned by well. Tories and loyalists, and so they're trying to assume that property, rather than it going to the forces.

Kathryn Gehred  15:07

Great. All right, I think, I think we've set things up fairly nicely. Anything else you wanted to let people know before we jump into the letter?

Mary Wigge  15:14

I just thought the timing was interesting, and I think it'll come into play with this letter. But you gave a great description of Henry Knox gains his mettle with bringing the British cannon down from Fort Ticonderoga, from what I was reading, the timing of that so they position it on Dorchester Heights, so around Boston, pointing into the city. And that's partially, well, mainly what causes the British fleet to depart and leave immediately, but that's also when Lucy's mom and her two sisters and her brother depart as well.

Kathryn Gehred  15:52

Oh, wow.

Mary Wigge  15:54

This was almost like Henry.

Kathryn Gehred  15:56

Oh no.

Mary Wigge  15:57

We didn't see that outcome. But

Kathryn Gehred  15:59

Have you ever wanted to point a bunch of cannons at your in-laws? Henry lived the dream.

Mary Wigge  16:05

Man, Lucy will not let him forget it.

Kathryn Gehred  16:09

Okay, all right, I'm gonna go ahead and read the letter.

Kathryn Gehred  16:15

Boston August 23rd 1777 My Dearest Friend,   

Kathryn Gehred  16:20

I wrote you a line by the last post just to lett you know I was alive which indeed was all I could then say with propriety for I had serious thoughts that I never should see you again, so much was I reduced by only four days illness. But by help of a good constitution I am surprisingly better today. I am now to answer your three last letters. In one of which you ask for a history of my life. It is, my love, so barren of adventures, and so replete with repetition that I fear it will afford you little amusement. However, such as it is, I give it you. In the first place, I rise about eight in the morning (a lazy hour you will say – but the day after that, is full long for a person in my situation) I presently after sitt down to my breakfast, where a page in my book, and a dish of tea, employ me alternately for about an hour. When after seeing that family matters go on right, I repair to my work, my book, or my pen, for the rest of the forenoon. At two o’clock I usually take my solitary dinner where I reflect upon my past happiness when I used to sitt at the window watching for my Harry – and when I saw him coming my heart would leap for joy – when he was all my own and never happy from me. When the bare thought of six months absence would have shocked him. To divert these ideas I place my little Lucy by me at table. But the more engaging her little actions are, so much the more do I regret the absence of her father who would take such delight in them. In the afternoon I commonly take my chaise, and ride into the country or go to drink tea with one of my few [struck: acquaintance] [inserted: friends]. They consist of Mrs Jarviss Mrs Sears Mrs Smith Mrs Pollard and my Aunt Waldo – I have many acquaintance beside these whom I visit but not without ceremony. when with any of the former I often spend the evening, but when I return home… how shall describe my feelings to find myself intirely alone. To reflect that the only friend I have in the world is at such an imense distance from me – to think that he may be sick and I cannot assist him. ah poor me my heart is ready to burst, you who know what a trifle would make me unhappy, can conceive what I suffer now. – When I seriously reflect that I have lost my father Mother Brother and Sisters – intirely lost them – I am half distracted. True I chearfully resigned them for one far dearer to me than all of them – but I am totaly deprived of him – I have not seen him for almost six months – and he writes me without pointing out any method by which I may ever expect to see him again – tis hard my Harry indeed it is. I love you with the tenderest, the purest affection – I would undergo any hardships to be near you and you will not lett me – suppose this campaign should be like the last carried into the winter – do you intend not to see me in all that time? – tell me dear what your plan is –   I wrote you that the Hero Sailed while I was at Newburg – She did but has been cruiseing about from harbour to harbour since – to get met – she is now here, and will sail in a day or two for france.   I wish I had fifty guinies to spare to send by her for necessarys – but I have not – the very little gold we have must be reserved for my Love in case he should be taken – for friends in such a case are not too common. – I am more distressed from the hott weather than any other fears – God grant you may not go farther south’ard – if you should I possitively will come too – I believe Genl Howe is a paltry fellow – but happy for as that he is so – Are you not much pleased with the news from the Northard? We think it is a great affair and a confirmation of St. Clairs villainy baseness – I hope he will not go unpunished – we hear also that Genl Gates is to go back to his command. – if so Master Schuyler, cannot be guiltless – it is very strange, you never mentioned that affair in any of your letters – What has become of Mrs Greene, do you all live together – or how do you manage – is Billy to remain with you payless or is he to have a commission? – if the former I think he had much better remained where he was – if he understood business he might without a capital have made a fortune – people here – without advanceing a shilling frequently clear hundreds in a day – such chaps as Eben Oliver are all men of fortune – while persons who have ever lived in affluence are in danger of want. oh that you had less of the military man about you – you might then after the war have lived at ease all the days of your life. But now I don't know what you will do, your being long acustomed to command will make you too haughty for mercantile matters. tho I hope you will not consider yourself as commander in chief of your own house – but be convinced, tho not in the affair of Mr Coudre, that there is such a thing as equal command. I send this by Capt. Randal who says he expects to remain with you. pray how many of these lads have you – I am sure they must be very expensive – I am in want of some square dollars – which I expect from you to buy me a peace of linen, an article I can do no longer without haveing had no recruit of that kind for almost five years. girls in general when they marry are well stocked with those things but poor I had no such advantage – little Lucy who is without exception the sweetest child in the world sends you a kiss, “but where shall I take it from?” say you – from the paper I hope – but dare I say I sometimes fear that a long absence the force of bad example may lead you to forget me at sometimes. To know that it ever gave you pleasure to be in company with the finest woman in the world, would be worse than death to me – but it is not so, my Harry is too just, too delicate, too sincere – and too fond of his Lucy to admit the most remote thought of that distracting kind –away with it – don't be angry with me my Love – I am not jealous of you affection – I love you with a love as true and sacred as ever entered the human heart – but from a diffidence of my own merit I sometimes fear you will Love me less – after being so long from me – if you should may my life end before I know it – that I may die thinking you wholly mine – Adieu my love -L

Kathryn Gehred  22:42

Okay, so this is such a good letter, I saw it's a draft. So I wonder if some of these sort of stream of thought, stream of consciousness sections got stuck, like some of the parts where she's like, please don't cheat on me. Please don't cheat on me. I wonder if she cut some of those in the final actual letter. Do you have any idea about that?

Mary Wigge  23:03

I don't. I love seeing like the words that were struck out and then replaced, like what's softer or what's stronger than what I want to use. Yeah, but she doesn't seem to have her mind made up whether to be angry, or at least, dare I say, passive aggressive with him to say, I need you around, but I want to be with you. I want to be with you, but I also love you, but also I pulled myself away from my family for you, but also I love you, decide one or the other. Yeah. I'm curious what that final draft would look like.

Kathryn Gehred  23:38

Yeah. I love everything about this. I love how well written it is. I love how funny she is. I love her little news. The thing that got me to pick this one is her little bit about how she spends her day, because I feel like that's sort of an insight into a well off Boston lady that you don't always get to see when she talks about being entirely alone. I can't believe she's actually entirely alone, if she's just able to, just like she sleeps till eight. I'm like, who's taking care of your little Lucy now that I have a kid, but that's my first thought with this is you get to have a sit down with a dish of tea and write for several hours.

Mary Wigge  24:16

I know it's like from eight. And then she really says, like from two o'clock PM. I'm like, What are you doing? You have a child. Don't you have a house to manage well?

Kathryn Gehred  24:27

And so it seems like other people are doing it. But then she keeps emphasizing, I'm entirely alone. I'm like, don't you have a maid that you chat with, or anything? Or that's not worth mentioning in the letter.

Mary Wigge  24:37

I know she names quite a number of friends, or, as she said, first acquaintances and then friends. They all seem like they are based in Boston. Their husbands are very likely acquainted with Henry. That's quite a few people to go see every now and again. I'm very impressed with what is she doing with her time?

Kathryn Gehred  24:59

Yeah, it's. A little insight into the Boston wealthy class. I like when she talks about how she used to just sit waiting for her Harry to come visit like that is cute. That's a cute little scene,

Mary Wigge  25:12

it is, but it's another kind of dig at Henry. She's just digging. And I like how she does that. That's what I remember from her days at Martha Washington Papers, we had to go looking through Lucy and Henry Knox letters, because by the time that Battle of Yorktown comes around, she's at Mount Vernon. And also, as you remember, that's when Martha's son John Parke Custis, dies. So both Henry and Lucy are well aware of this and trying to talk about how they should probably leave out of respect for this family that is in mourning and sorrow, but they're still like this playful language and Lucy uses, and you can just tell that she has a lot of sass and intelligence, yeah. But she's also possibly jealous of anyone else who's around her, Henry, yeah.

Kathryn Gehred  26:07

And I think the little bit where she says, You who know what a trifle would make me unhappy, can conceive what I suffer now. So she's teasing herself a little bit. She's like, you know, I used to be sad at a trifle, and now I have real things to be sad about, and then she goes into like, what she really is sad about the fact that she's entirely lost her father, mother, brother and sisters, and that's rough. These family dynamics are so complicated in the American Revolution.

Mary Wigge  26:32

Yeah it gets very, very hard. And I think she has an aunt, as I mentioned before, who attends her wedding, who's I think, mentioned here? Yeah, her aunt Waldo, who she can see, but from this collection of Henry and Lucy Knox letters, it includes a couple of letters written to her mother and even to her sister, just trying to reach out, trying to correspond, and she's not getting any word back. It's really hard and sad. She's very playful in her language, and I do think that she's uncertain how to be towards Henry. It's rather apparent that, of course, she misses him terribly, but she also seems a bit well steamed.

Kathryn Gehred  27:15

Yes, this next paragraph, in particular, when she goes from being legitimately sad. I've lost my father, mother, brother and sisters entirely. Lost them. I'm half distracted, and then she's like I cheerfully resigned them for one far dearer to me than all of them, but now I'm totally deprived man. It's like I've not seen him for six months, and he writes to me without pointing out any myth. It's just like she is going through it, and she's writing it as she feels it, but it's still well written. And she says, I would undergo any hardship to be near you, and you will not let me like oof, beautiful. But this also provides an insight into the American Revolution that we see a lot in these letters from women, that I think people sometimes forget is that there were so many women traveling around with these armies. She wants to be there because there are other women there. She's asking if Nathaniel Greene's wife is there. These winter encampments had a lot of officers wives there, all of these sort of people. Imagine, you know, the traveling army and to be almost entirely male, but there were always lots of women there. So to leave them out is not telling the whole story.

Mary Wigge  28:26

And it's interesting because Henry Knox is really descriptive to Lucy about a number of the battles, and that includes, like, the Battle of Trenton, the Battle of Princeton. So like, remember Crossing the Delaware, but he's so descriptive to her about these and you can tell that he wishes she's there, but he also doesn't want her to be there, to be in any harms way. But then she comes back with one particular letter when she's at Mount Vernon. This is later in 1781, well, Martha Washington and John Parke Custis, his wife, received their letters from their husband saying that they can come to the winter encampments. Where's my letter? I still haven't heard from you. When can I come see you? I mean, like this was like another form of community. But most importantly, this is like for her to be with her husband. I don't think she really starts traveling to winter encampments until around 1778 so there is a ton of traveling. You're right.

Kathryn Gehred  29:22

My other point, I might have made this a million times before, but when this tier, like the officers wives, like the generals, wives, are going to a winter encampment, travel is tough and all of that. But when they're in these headquarters, they're in the biggest, fanciest house they could find. Oh yeah, they are having parties. They are socializing. And yes, there is absolutely risk. There's totally risk. For these women that are traveling with these armies, there's a reason that she wants to go. She's not gonna go there and be like horrified by scenes of terrible war, necessarily. She's a little bit shielded from that. So for her, it really is. She just wants to see Henry.

Mary Wigge  29:58

It is interesting, though. Of around this particular time, if not even earlier, in 1776 Henry is writing asking her to send him things she knows she's supposed to bring, all these items, sheets or bedding and spoons, like all the utensils, everything for an actual legitimate house during winter encampments, not to mention, as you were talking about, all the hosting that just That's a lot.

Kathryn Gehred  30:27

Back to the letter, where she talks about, I wish I had 50 guineas to spare. And then she says, the very little gold we have must be reserved for my love in case he should be taken. So is she talking about paying off like, a bail, like, if he is captured as a prisoner of war so she can, like, get him out. Is that what she's talking about?

Mary Wigge  30:44

That's how I interpreted it, and it was pretty common. But I mean, it does also just sound like money is getting hard to come by, and in the brief other letters that I was reading of their correspondence, or other correspondence that they have around this time frame. She's like, this particular item that you're asking or food stuff that you're asking for. It doesn't just come out of thin air. It's very expensive. I can't just go and try to find this for you, but it is becoming a bit of more of a trying time. I mean, it's a hard economy during war time.

Kathryn Gehred  31:19

Yeah she's not war profiteering like Abigail. No, although maybe she is, she's she does talk about like, who's making a fortune down here? That part surprised me. Yeah, we have to throw in the feminist quote that gets cited quite a bit, where she says, Your being long accustomed to command will make you too haughty for mercantile matters, though, I hope you will not consider yourself as commander in chief of your own house. There is such a thing as equal command. Like snaps, snaps to Lucy.

Mary Wigge  31:49

It's fantastic. But even before reading that, I mean, just from a general sense of reading some of Lucy and Henry Knox's letters, I was like, Yeah, that sounds like her personality. Yeah, she's not going to get walked over. No, she's not going to take any of that. That just made sense to me. I'm like, Yeah, of course.

Kathryn Gehred  32:10

He's not going to be commander in chief of his own house.

Mary Wigge  32:13

No, no,

Kathryn Gehred  32:16

Let's see. Oh yeah. When she says, girls in general, when they marry, are well stocked with those things. But poor, I had no such advantage. That is some passive aggression. That's not even hiding the passive aggression, no. Poor, I had no such advantage.

Mary Wigge  32:31

She doesn't let him forget at all. And it just seems like, Oh, poor Henry, but like you understand her circumstances,

Kathryn Gehred  32:41

To lose touch with her whole family for him, yeah, I'd completely understand.

Mary Wigge  32:47

And again, I think because when we first started looking through Henry and Lucy Knox correspondence, I think what I never really picked up was just how young they were at this time frame, Martha George Washington are like, 25 years their senior? Yeah, she's still like 21 right now?

Kathryn Gehred  33:06

Yeah, this reads like a 21 year old letter, right? She should be at the club.

Mary Wigge  33:10

She totally would. She's bored, well, not bored, but she's lonely, and she really wants to be with her husband, but like, they're going through the most difficult time frame, arguably in American history, but also probably for their marriage, because this is gonna continue for the next five, six years.

Kathryn Gehred  33:28

That is a really great point to bring up, that these are very young people, yeah, and I'll hear a little bit about kissing the paper at the end. Is cute whenever somebody writes like, but what will you say? Where shall I take it from that always made me laugh. And then just like, five or six sentences of just like, I know there's women there, and if you should made my life and before I know it, I love that. She's like, maybe, maybe you are, you know, not being faithful, but do not let me know

Mary Wigge  33:57

There's a level of self doubt that I was reading in this last paragraph, she's like, I am not jealous of your affection. I love you truly and so forth with a pure heart. But I would die if you said that you had been in the company of the finest woman in the world. I interpreted that as a completely different other woman, yes, yes. She seems to be again, all over the place, emotionally on that front, or at least how I perceive it as like a sense of self doubt. And I mean, she's in the blind. She has no idea what's going on here so

Kathryn Gehred  34:31

And again, I don't know how much of this last paragraph made it into the actual letter that she sent him, right and in real life, the night she is writing this, he is 40 miles away from where the action is, buying her something which I think is great,

Mary Wigge  34:45

Like all this doubt that she has turns out to be for no reason purpose.

Kathryn Gehred  34:51

I mean, I don't know. They didn't write things down. Maybe, maybe it was

Mary Wigge  34:54

That's very fair. Maybe she had real reason to be suspicious.

Kathryn Gehred  34:59

What I like about this letter is it does feel so real and honest about her feelings, and it's this little window into her life, even describing what she does during a day and how she talks about her daughter. And so I can see why teachers assign this letter a lot when they're talking about what life was like for women during the revolution, but I will say again that this is the life of a very high class wealthy, married to an officer woman. So this is not what any woman was experiencing. This is a very specific white, upper class woman's experience of the revolution, and she's still having a tough time. Not saying she's not having a tough time, but just something to keep in mind.

Mary Wigge  35:36

I think that's a really good point, and I think that's in the paragraph. Well, she's describing the news about like General Howe and St. Clair's villainy. She's well aware of military news and what's going on, so at least she has an idea of what's happening on the battlefield. And that's also, as I was mentioning, thanks to some of Henry's letters, because he's describing the Battle of Trenton, the Battle of Princeton, and he does talk about the surrender at Yorktown later on in 1781 which I always thought was really interesting. She's getting that front row seat perspective how much she really cares about it. I think she does, but I think she cares a bit more if Henry were at home and safe, or at least they were together.

Kathryn Gehred  36:25

She doesn't strike me as somebody who is like willingly an officer's wife. She would rather he had been staying in Boston and making money and being right next to her, I think.

Mary Wigge  36:34

Yeah, I think she wanted to marry the bookstore owner. I think my first impression of her was a bit harsh, because I didn't appreciate where she was coming from, her family background, how old she was, or really, her circumstances, really in life, like as a new mom, I bet she's also constantly questioning everything she's doing and feels alone. But my first impression, I would say, I still kind of uphold of like she's sassy and like her letters. I don't think we see this very often, and I kind of wish we had had an opportunity with like Martha Washington. They're so lovey dovey and filled of romantic metaphors, but also they're intelligent, a little passive aggressive, and a little little self pity and self doubt there in here, but it makes them more human. And yeah, this was a really good letter.

Kathryn Gehred  37:30

That is a really great way to sum it up.

Mary Wigge  37:32

I think this was a good letter to choose from, because it shows all forms of not just the public sphere, but also the private sphere that were involved that affected people's lives, especially during the American Revolution, and especially for military wives.

Kathryn Gehred  37:51

Well Mary, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and talking about this. This was so much fun.

Mary Wigge  37:56

This was a fun letter. Thank you.

Kathryn Gehred  37:58

So for my listeners, I will link to some of these letters we're talking about, we will definitely cite the book that Mary mentioned using for research for this. And I am, as ever, your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.

Kathryn Gehred  38:22

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant is a production of R2 Studios, part of the Roy Rosenzweig Center for History and New Media at George Mason University. This episode is supported by the Dr. Scholl Foundation. I'm Kathryn Gehred, the creator and host of this podcast, Jeanette Patrick and Jim Ambuske are the executive producers. Haley Madl is our graduate assistant. Special thanks to Virginia Humanities for allowing me to use their recording studio. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend and be sure to rate and review the series in your podcast app. For more great history podcasts, head to R2studios.org, thanks for listening.