Episode 57: Those Tumultuous Assemblies of Men

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Kathryn Gehred: Hello and
welcome to Your Most Obedient &

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Humble Servant. This is a
women's history podcast where we

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feature 18th and early 19th
century women's letters that

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don't get as much attention as
we think they should. I'm your

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host, Kathryn Gehred and I'm
thrilled to welcome Dr. Cynthia

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Kierner to the show. I first
became familiar with Dr.

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Kierner's work when I was a
guide at Monticello. And I read

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her book, Scandal At the Bizarre
Rumor and Reputation in

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Jefferson's America, which is an
absolutely incredible book, and

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you should read it. She also has
published many other books,

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including Beyond the Household:
Women's Place in the Early

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South, 1700 to 1835 and
Inventing Disaster: The Culture

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of Calamity from the Jamestown
Colony to the Johnstown Flood

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and Martha Jefferson Randolph,
Daughter of Monticello: Her Life

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and Times. Most recently, Dr.
Kierner published the Tories

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Wife: A Woman and her Family in
Revolutionary America, which is

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about Jane Welborn Spurgin, an
absolutely fascinating North

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Carolinian woman in the American
Revolution. Welcome, Dr. Kierner

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thank you so much for coming on
the show.

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Cindy Kierner: Thanks for
inviting me.

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Kathryn Gehred: I've noticed
from looking up all of your

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books, a lot of your work has to
do with women in the early

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south. Is there something that
draws you to that subject?

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Cindy Kierner: Well, I really
see myself as an early

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Americanist, but I guess I
gravitated toward women in what

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became the South with a capital
S, because they were relatively

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understudied, at least when I
was beginning my career. And I

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think that's because getting at
the sources, particularly for

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the early period, is harder than
it would be say for New England,

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places like that. Also, my first
job was in North Carolina, where

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students were interested in
local history, so I felt like I

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needed to know the sources in
order to teach them research

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methods and so forth. And so
that's when I started doing

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quote, unquote, Southern things.
My first book in my dissertation

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had actually been on New York.
And then after that, one project

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led to another. You mentioned
Scandal at the Bizarre, well in

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some ways, that led really
organically to my biography of

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Martha Jefferson Randolph, who
had married into the family the

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Randolphs who became embroiled
in that scandal. And I was

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attracted to her less because
she was Jefferson's daughter

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than because she seemed to be
like the only non crazy person

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in the family. She was pretty
well grounded, unlike most of

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them.

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Kathryn Gehred: I think of Peter
Randolph of Roanoke all the time

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from that book. I am when I

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Cindy Kierner: John?

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Kathryn Gehred: Yeah, sorry.
John Randolph of Roanoke, I see

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his portrait. I'm just like, I
get angry.

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Cindy Kierner: Yeah, a bit of a
wacko.

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Kathryn Gehred: So obviously,
this is women's history podcast.

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We believe in women's history.
Here. Is there something that

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you wish more people understood
about women's history?

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Cindy Kierner: Well, I mean, I
guess that it's like real

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history, and I guess even more
importantly, that what happened

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in the past often looked really
different from a woman's

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perspective than from a man's
that difference needs to be

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actually incorporated into what
we consider to be the big

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picture of history, in the same
way that, you know, we need to

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work harder to do the same thing
for the histories of Black

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Americans, the histories of
Indigenous people and so forth.

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It's not okay just to sort of
have them kind of on the side

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and read books and say, Oh, this
is really interesting, but it

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needs to be part of the larger
whole that people consider to be

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real history with a capital H.

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Kathryn Gehred: It's been
striking me recently of this

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focus on objective history, and
it seems like people think that

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if there's a perspective that's
different from a white male's

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then it's necessarily not
objective. But I don't

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understand why a woman's
experience of something isn't a

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fact, yeah, no, somebody else's
experience is a fact.

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Cindy Kierner: Yeah, that's
absolutely right.

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Kathryn Gehred: Today, we're
continuing our series on the

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American Revolution, and we're
going to be talking about a

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letter from 1778 1778 and this
is written by a man, but he's

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writing it to his sister. This
is Richard Henry Lee to his

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sister, Hannah Lee Corbin, do
you mind sort of introducing

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Richard Henry Lee to our
listeners?

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Cindy Kierner: So he was one of
11 children of Thomas and Hannah

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Ludwell Lee. He grew up at
Stratford Hall. He and several

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of his brothers were important
leaders of the revolutionary

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movement in Virginia. But I
guess he is most famous as the

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member of the Continental
Congress who made the motion to

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declare independence in 1776 and
of course, he was also a signer

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of the Declaration of
Independence.

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Kathryn Gehred: I do think of
him in the musical 1776 there's

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a whole song about all believe.
Yeah, right, so that's Richard

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Henry Lee, who you may have
heard of in your textbooks, but

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tell me about Hannah Lee Corbin.

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Cindy Kierner: Okay so she was
Richard's older sister. She was

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well educated for a woman of her
time, especially a Virginia

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woman of her time, the family
hired all these tutors to teach

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her brothers, and she got taught
by them as well. Unlike her

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brothers, though she didn't get
to go to Europe for the grand

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tour after her schooling was
over, and she got married when

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she was 19 in 1747, which just
sounds just horribly young, but

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really wasn't that unusual. Her
husband was a wealthy planter by

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the name of Gowen Corbin, and he
was also her cousin, which,

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again, not terribly unusual. And
he died in 1760 and when he

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died, Hannah assumed control of
his property. And what that

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property was was thousands of
acres and hundreds of enslaved

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people, besides other stuff,
like furniture and what have

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you. But Gowin's Will said that
Hannah would retain control of

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the property only if she didn't
remarry. And again, that was a

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fairly typical condition of the
time. But it seems to me that

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the really interesting thing
about Hannah Lee Corbin, is what

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came next in widowhood. First of
all, she became a Baptist, which

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might not seem like that big a
deal, but it was actually a

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really, really radical choice
for an upper class woman in a

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place like Virginia, the Church
of England was the established

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church. That meant that it was
supported by the state. The

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Church of England was also very
closely associated with the

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power of the gentry, which,
remember, were Hannah's people.

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The second thing that she did
that was really unusual is that

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she started cohabiting with a
fellow Baptist, a man, a

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physician whose name was Richard
Lingon Hall, and they had two

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children together. So this
clearly was not just a platonic

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relationship, and for one of two
reasons, Hannah and Richard

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never got married, and we're not
really sure the exact reason,

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but there are two possibilities.
The first is that if she did

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remarriage, she would have lost
control of her husband's

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property. But there was also a
kind of like a moral or

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religious issue at stake, and
that was that in colonial

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Virginia, because the Church of
England was the established

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church, the only marriages that
were legally valid were those

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performed according to the
rights and rules of the Church

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of England. And as a Baptist,
she likely did not consider

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those rights and rules to be
legitimate. But yet, also as a

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Baptist. She couldn't marry as a
Baptist because that would have

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been invalid or maybe even
illegal. But she was, she was

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really interesting. I mean, she
was doing things that you

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wouldn't expect, quote, unquote
respectable ladies to be doing

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in Virginia at this time, and
apparently, without severe she

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wasn't ostracized or anything
like that. As a result.

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Kathryn Gehred: I was surprised
when I looked into this is

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showing my ignorance, but I sort
of have a certain idea of like,

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what Baptists are like and
Baptists in the south, but then

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looking at the history of the
Baptist Church, particularly at

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this time period, it's so
interestingly, radical,

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Cindy Kierner: super radical. I
mean, they let Black people

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preach, even enslaved people
preach. They talked a lot about

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equality. I mean, even if they
didn't always walk the walk,

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they just talked the talk. And,
you know, and that's one of the

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reasons why, not only was being
a Baptist, on Hannah's part, a

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kind of, you know, weird or
eccentric choice. I mean, in

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some ways, it was a dangerous
choice. I mean, basically the

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Baptist, the sort of social
ideals of the Baptist were the

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antithesis of the sort of things
that she had grown up learning

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at Stratford Hall, and the
antithesis of things that the

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rest of her family likely
believed even during the

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revolution.

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Kathryn Gehred: Does it seem
like a lot of the Lees were sort

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of radical politically? Do we
know much about what Richard and

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Hannah's relationship was like?

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Cindy Kierner: Well, like I
said, several of the Lee

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brothers were important Patriot
leaders during the revolution,

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so like on the issue of American
independence, they were

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certainly radical, and they were
in the group with like Jefferson

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and some others who were nudging
some of the more conservative

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planters in the direction of
independence. You know, in other

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ways, they're fundamentally
conservative. I mean, they don't

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free their slaves. After the
revolution in Virginia, there's

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still property qualifications
for even men to vote. So in some

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ways they were radical, but in
other ways, not so much. In

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terms of the relationship
between Richard and Hannah. I

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don't think there are a lot of
surviving letters between them,

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so I guess we don't really know
a lot, but I do think that the

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letter we're discussing today
shows a certain level of respect

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between the two of them. I mean,
this is not just a goofy letter

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about non serious topics. It's
about very serious topics, which

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suggests to me that she felt
like she could talk to him about

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serious things, and that he
would take her seriously.

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Kathryn Gehred: And to sort of
set the moment, set the place in

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time before we read the letter.
Do you have any idea of what's

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going on for each of them at the
time they wrote this letter.

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Cindy Kierner: Well, for Hannah,
she's living on her plantation

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with her children. Richard Hall
actually died in 1774 so she's

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not technically a widow, because
they weren't married, but she's

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without a significant other. The
war hadn't really come to

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Virginia yet, so there's not
like battles going, going on

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around her, but civilians were
subject to high taxes to pay for

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the war. It was hard to sell
tobacco and other produce

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because of British naval
blockades. There were all sorts

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of shortages for kind of the
same reasons. So she's at home

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coping with that. Meanwhile,
Richard was in Philadelphia

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serving as one of Virginia's
congressional delegates.

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Kathryn Gehred: All right, so
let's jump in

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Okay, there's sort of a lot of
18th century legalese going on

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Richard Henry Lee to Hannah Lee
Corbin, Chantilly March 17, 1778

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My dear Sister, Distressed as my
mind is, and has been, by a vast

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variety of attentions, I am illy
able by letter to give you the

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satisfaction I could wish on the
several subjects of your letter.

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Reasonable as you are, and
friendly to the freedom and

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happiness of your Country, I
should have no doubt about

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giving you perfect comfort in a
few hours conversation. You

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complain that Widows are not
represented, and that being

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temporary Possessors of their
estates, ought not to be liable

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to the Tax. The doctrine of
representation is a large

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subject, and it is certain that
it ought to be extended far as

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wisdom and policy can allow. Nor
do I see that either of these

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forbid Widows having property
from voting, notwithstanding it

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has never been the practice
either here or in England.

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Perhaps ’twas thought rather out
of character for Women to press

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into those tumultuous Assemblies
of Men where the business of

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choosing Representatives is
conducted. And it might also

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have been considered as not so
necessary, seeing, that the

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representatives themselves as
well as their immediate

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Constituents, must suffer the
Tax imposed in exact proportion

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as does all other property Taxed
and that therefore it could not

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be supposed the Taxes would be
laid where the public good di[d

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not] absolutely demand it. This
then is the Widows security as

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well as the never married Women
who have lands in their own

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right, for both of whom I have
the greatest respect, and would

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at any time give my consent to
establish their right of Voting,

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altho I am persuaded that it
would not give them greater

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security, nor alter the mode of
Taxation you complain of.

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Because the Tax idea does not go
to the consideration of

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perpetual property, but is
accommodated to the high prices

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00:12:11,220 --> 00:12:15,780
given for the Annual profits.
Thus, no more than ½ percent is

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00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:19,080
laid on the Assessed value,
altho produce sells now three

220
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,920
and four hundred percent above
what it formerly did. Tobo. sold

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00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:29,520
5 & 6 years ago for 15 pounds &
2 pence, now ’tis at 50, & 55. A

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00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,520
very considerable part of the
property I hold is like yours

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00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:36,630
temporary, for my life only, yet
I see the propriety of paying my

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proportion of the Tax laid for
the protection of property so

225
00:12:37,197 --> 00:14:50,328
in this letter. Do you think you
could sort of summarize what's

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00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,200
long as that property remains in
my possession and I derive use

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00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:46,740
and profit from it. When we
complained of British Taxation

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00:12:46,770 --> 00:12:49,620
we did so with much reason, and
there is a great difference

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between our case and that of the
unrepresented in this Country.

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00:12:53,070 --> 00:12:55,650
The English Parliament nor their
Representatives would pay a

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00:12:55,650 --> 00:12:59,070
farthing of the Tax they imposed
on us, but quite otherwise,

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00:12:59,310 --> 00:13:02,130
their property would have been
exonerated in exact proportion

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to the burthens they laid on
ours. Oppression therefore

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00:13:05,790 --> 00:13:09,780
without end, and Taxes without
reason or public necessity would

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have been our fate had we
submitted to British

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00:13:12,270 --> 00:13:16,260
ursurpation. For my part, I had
much rather leave my Children

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00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:20,100
free, than in possession
[illegible] at nominal wealth,

238
00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:22,890
which would infallibly [have]
been the case with all American

239
00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:26,010
possessions had our property
been subject to the Arbitrary

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00:13:26,010 --> 00:13:29,880
Taxation of a British
Parliament. With respect to Mr.

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00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,450
Fauntleroy, if he spoke as you
say, it is a very good reason

242
00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:36,840
why he ought not to be an
Assessor. But if he should be,

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00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:40,050
the law has wisely provided a
remedy against the mistakes or

244
00:13:40,050 --> 00:13:43,140
the injustice of Assessors by
giving the injured Party an

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00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:46,290
Appeal to the Commissioners of
the Tax, which Commissioners are

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00:13:46,290 --> 00:13:49,050
annually chosen by the
Freeholders and Householders,

247
00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:52,320
and in the choice of whom then,
you have as legal a right to

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vote as any other person. I
believe there is no instance in

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00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,370
our new Government of
unnecessary Placemen, and I know

250
00:13:59,370 --> 00:14:02,130
the rule is to make their
Salaries moderate as possible,

251
00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:06,720
and even these moderate Salaries
are to pay Tax. But should G.

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00:14:06,750 --> 00:14:10,050
Britain gain her point, where we
have one Placemen we should have

253
00:14:10,050 --> 00:14:14,730
a thousand, and pay pounds where
we pay pence; nor should we dare

254
00:14:14,730 --> 00:14:18,870
to [illegible] of Military
execution. This, with the other

255
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:22,470
horrid concomitants of Slavery,
may well persuade the Americans

256
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:26,280
to loose blood and pay taxes
also, rather than submit to

257
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,820
them. My extensive engagements
have prevented me from adverting

258
00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:32,190
to yours and Dr. Halls
subscriptions for L.[ord]

259
00:14:32,220 --> 00:14:36,030
Camdens picture not having been
refunded, as the [illegible]

260
00:14:36,060 --> 00:14:40,680
have long since been, but the
money is ready for your call. I

261
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,500
am, my dear Sister most
sincerely and affectionately

262
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:48,510
yours Richard Henry Lee P.S. Dr.
Steptoe & myself returned last

263
00:14:48,510 --> 00:14:51,360
night from a ten days
confinement at Belleview where

264
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,090
our brother Thos. has been in
very great danger of losing his

265
00:14:52,441 --> 00:15:11,460
going on?

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00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:57,720
life by obstinate fever. I have
the pleasure to inform you we

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00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,510
left him out of danger. R. H. L.

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00:15:11,430 --> 00:15:15,000
Cindy Kierner: So the main issue
here is why widows are being

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00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,020
taxed without representation,
without being able to elect,

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00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:23,820
help elect the people who are
levying the taxes. All right, so

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00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:29,070
in Virginia, as in other states,
only people who owned a certain

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00:15:29,070 --> 00:15:33,630
amount of property could vote,
and therefore only those people

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the voters had representation in
the state legislature. And the

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00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:41,370
state legislature was, of
course, the body that was

275
00:15:41,370 --> 00:15:45,570
passing and implementing these
tax laws in practice, though

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00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,790
only male property owners voted,
despite the fact that widows and

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00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:54,930
single women could also own
property, and in fact, did own

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00:15:54,930 --> 00:15:58,710
property. As Richard pointed out
in his letter, there was nothing

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00:15:58,710 --> 00:16:02,940
explicit in the law that barred
widows from voting. But, I mean,

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00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:05,460
I think you can bet that if they
tried, there would it would have

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00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:08,010
been controversial, it might
have even have been scandalous.

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And in fact, there's another
Virginia widow, Mary willing

283
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:15,120
bird, also an incredibly wealthy
woman who expressed the same

284
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,810
grievance in a letter to the
governor of Virginia. She didn't

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00:16:18,810 --> 00:16:23,010
get a whole lot of satisfaction
either. I should add that wives

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00:16:23,010 --> 00:16:26,850
were not at all a part of this
discussion, because when a woman

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00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:30,690
married, control of her property
was vested in her husband, no

288
00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:33,690
one's asking this question about
wives. It's widows and single

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00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:35,490
women who control property.

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00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:37,560
Kathryn Gehred: In some of the
books I read about Virginia at

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00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,260
this time period, they talk
about widows being sort of like

292
00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:43,500
a way of transferring money
between different men in some

293
00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:45,780
ways. But it's interesting me
that there's these widows

294
00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:48,450
dealing with legal issues, and
it strikes them as sort of

295
00:16:48,450 --> 00:16:51,600
obvious. I should have
representation, right? If the

296
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,610
issue is whether or not you own
property, whether you're a

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00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:55,980
citizen, I am in control of
quite a bit of property.

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00:16:56,190 --> 00:16:58,560
Cindy Kierner: Well, I mean, I
kind of wonder though, I mean,

299
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,920
so we've got Mary Willing Byrd,
we've got Hannah Lee Corbin. I

300
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,810
wonder how many other women are
sort of articulating the same

301
00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:09,090
questions and the same
criticisms, you know? And in

302
00:17:09,090 --> 00:17:11,430
fact, we'll never know, right?
Because a lot of them are

303
00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:15,150
probably sitting at a kitchen
table or in a tavern. If they're

304
00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:18,150
saying it, it's like, why can't
I vote? And we'll never

305
00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:21,570
recapture that. Conceivably,
there could also be other

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00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:25,560
letters out there that did not
survive, or, you know, on the

307
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,920
other hand, maybe most women
were just kind of like, okay,

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00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,700
you know, it is what it is. And,
you know, maybe voting would be

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00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:36,810
great, but there are, like,
other things I need more, you

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00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:40,950
know? I mean, you know, I don't
know. We'll never know. But I

311
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:46,770
mean, I guess the thing that is
worth noting is that it is the

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00:17:46,770 --> 00:17:51,000
revolution that causes at least
some people to start asking

313
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,540
these questions that they
presumably would not have asked

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00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:55,200
before.

315
00:17:55,860 --> 00:17:58,380
Kathryn Gehred: Yeah, if the
whole system of governments

316
00:17:58,620 --> 00:18:01,800
being changed, then maybe this
is another change we can throw

317
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,690
in. I know the famous Abigail
Adams letter.

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00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:07,230
Cindy Kierner: Yeah, which is
very different from this, yeah.

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00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,620
One way to read this letter is
Richard being kind of

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00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:14,580
exasperated with his sister,
like, you know, honey, I'm busy.

321
00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:17,910
I'm like, in the Congress. And
really, you want me to take this

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00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:21,360
on. I think in a lot of ways,
this is a pretty impressive

323
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:25,290
letter. Richard took a fair
amount of time writing by hand,

324
00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:28,470
right? We should remind
listeners this longish letter

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00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:32,670
and assessing the issue from
both the legal and cultural

326
00:18:32,670 --> 00:18:36,660
angles. We might disagree with
that assessment, but, I mean, I

327
00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:39,810
think it's significant that he
didn't blow her off. He didn't

328
00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:44,040
dismiss her as being silly. You
know, really girls voting? I,

329
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,280
you know, I don't think so. And,
I mean, I think that the really

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00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,750
interesting comparison is
actually to Abigail Adams, like

331
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:55,800
super famous letter, you know,
where she's telling John, also a

332
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,250
member of Congress, to remember
the ladies. You know, if you

333
00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:03,240
look at John's response, he
pretty much laughed at her, and

334
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,420
he really didn't address her
concerns directly, whereas

335
00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:10,770
Richard Henry Lee is addressing
Hannah's concerns directly, even

336
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,060
if he's not necessarily giving
her exactly the answer that she

337
00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:15,780
wants.

338
00:19:16,290 --> 00:19:18,450
Kathryn Gehred: Yeah, I think
that's fair. Reading it again,

339
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,470
he's definitely addressing her
points and responding to them. I

340
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:25,020
noticed this time reading it
that he talks about, I could

341
00:19:25,020 --> 00:19:27,870
clear this up with several hours
conversation. So I like that

342
00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:30,060
idea of them sitting together,
you know, by the fire and

343
00:19:30,060 --> 00:19:31,950
talking about politics really.

344
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:34,890
Cindy Kierner: Yep, absolutely,
absolutely. I mean, it also

345
00:19:34,890 --> 00:19:37,890
might be a difference between,
you know, the relationship

346
00:19:37,890 --> 00:19:40,230
between siblings and the
relationship between husband and

347
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:43,950
wife. On the other hand, there
are a lot of letters between

348
00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:48,540
John and Abigail Adams that show
that they respected each other

349
00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:52,890
enormously. But yet John Adams
was either too busy or too

350
00:19:52,890 --> 00:19:57,030
amused to say, well, you know,
Abigail, what exactly do you

351
00:19:57,030 --> 00:20:01,350
want us to do? And I really wish
that he. Had said that because

352
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:05,340
historians to this day debate
the meaning of that letter. What

353
00:20:05,340 --> 00:20:08,730
did Abigail Adams want? I mean,
we don't know for sure, because

354
00:20:08,730 --> 00:20:09,810
John laughed her off, right?

355
00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:12,960
Kathryn Gehred: But the other
section where he says, nor do I

356
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,450
see that either of these forbid
widows having property from

357
00:20:15,450 --> 00:20:18,540
voting. Notwithstanding, it has
never been the practice, either

358
00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:22,200
here or in England, this sort of
reminds me of constitution

359
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,210
daily. Used to do a blog, and
they had something about, like,

360
00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:26,610
when women got the right to
vote. And the whole article was

361
00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:28,380
about, like, Well, women
actually always had the

362
00:20:28,380 --> 00:20:31,050
constitutional right to vote, is
like, they just chose not to.

363
00:20:31,260 --> 00:20:34,260
And I'm like, Yeah, okay, no.

364
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,160
Cindy Kierner: I don't think
that's true. I mean, for one

365
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:41,260
thing, the Constitution doesn't
deal with voting rights at all

366
00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:46,150
until after the Civil War, and
the state constitutions do, and

367
00:20:46,150 --> 00:20:49,810
in every case except one New
Jersey, shout out to the Garden

368
00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:54,070
State. They specify that it's
got to be men. And what happens

369
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:57,790
in New Jersey is really
instructive, because the 1776

370
00:20:57,790 --> 00:21:01,270
constitution says, I mean
exactly what Hannah Lee Corbin

371
00:21:01,270 --> 00:21:05,650
is saying people, including
women, including free African

372
00:21:05,650 --> 00:21:08,620
Americans, who own a certain
amount of property can vote, but

373
00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:13,000
in 18, 1807, they change it, and
it's just like no white guys

374
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,100
with a certain amount of
property can vote. Oops. That

375
00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:18,580
was a mistake. So I would take
issue with the idea that women

376
00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:19,840
always had the right to vote.

377
00:21:20,110 --> 00:21:22,270
Kathryn Gehred: Yeah. It just
struck me as odd. And then the

378
00:21:22,270 --> 00:21:25,120
way that Richard Henry Lee
mentions the story talks about,

379
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,760
I don't see that it forbids
them, like it doesn't explicitly

380
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,970
forbid them, he's really taking
her point seriously.

381
00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:34,870
Cindy Kierner: Absolutely. And
it's like he's trying to explain

382
00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:39,460
where the prohibition on widows
voting came from, and he's

383
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:43,810
saying that it's not the result
of law or policy. I mean, he

384
00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:48,250
actually says it's not the
result of wisdom or policy. It

385
00:21:48,250 --> 00:21:50,860
just is, you know, it's like
that expression, that annoying

386
00:21:50,860 --> 00:21:52,480
expression, it is what it is,

387
00:21:52,540 --> 00:21:54,880
Kathryn Gehred: yeah. And the
fact that at this time period

388
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,340
when everything's changing, that
all of a sudden it's like, oh,

389
00:21:57,340 --> 00:21:59,980
yeah, that is just this way,
because of custom. Why is that

390
00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:02,580
that they're bringing up these
questions is interesting, and

391
00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:05,640
then brings up perhaps it was
thought rather out of character

392
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,280
for women to press into those
tumultuous assemblies of men

393
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,920
where the business of choosing
representatives is conducted.

394
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,060
He's describing, sort of it's
not women's place to be in this

395
00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:17,760
tumultuous assembly. And it kind
of was depressing to me that

396
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,100
seems like society's
expectations for women haven't

397
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:21,800
changed a whole lot well.

398
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,930
Cindy Kierner: I mean, I guess I
agree, sort of, but I mean,

399
00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:28,560
without mentioning any names, I
think it's worth noting that

400
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,220
some of our most quote unquote
tumultuous politicians today are

401
00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:38,190
women, and that, I guess, seems
to be okay to even the most anti

402
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:43,950
female segments of our society,
if those women aren't trying to

403
00:22:43,950 --> 00:22:47,280
advance a feminist agenda, or
better yet, if they're advancing

404
00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:51,960
an anti feminist one. In terms
of Richard and Hannah, I think

405
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,680
what he's trying to say is that
the prohibitions or the taboos

406
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,620
against women voting were more
cultural than legal. And this

407
00:23:01,620 --> 00:23:04,590
sort of really important point
there that he's not making, but

408
00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:08,280
I mean, I think we can sort of
conclude is that culture is

409
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,670
obviously harder to change than
laws. You want to change a law,

410
00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:15,420
you lobby the legislature, you
get support, you got it enacted.

411
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:19,650
Changing culture is a whole lot
harder, and it's certainly not

412
00:23:19,650 --> 00:23:23,220
something that Richard Henry Lee
could do right, even if he

413
00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:25,530
wanted to, even if he wanted,
not saying that he did want to,

414
00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:26,640
but even if he wanted to.

415
00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:30,150
Kathryn Gehred: It does give me
the nice mental image of Hannah,

416
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:33,180
sort of elbowing her way into
those tumultuous assemblies.

417
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:35,580
Cindy Kierner: Listen to me guys

418
00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:39,420
Kathryn Gehred: Exactly. He says
this, then is the widow security

419
00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:41,700
as well as the never married,
women who have lands in their

420
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,550
own right, for both of whom I
have the greatest respect and

421
00:23:44,550 --> 00:23:47,010
would at any time give my
consent to establish their right

422
00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:49,890
of voting, although I am
persuaded it would not give them

423
00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:52,950
greater security, nor alter the
mode of taxation you complain

424
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:55,920
of. So this part, I was like,
Oh, wow. He's really saying he

425
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,320
supports women's rights to vote,
and then he's saying, but it's

426
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,500
not actually good for you. That
part actually made me laugh.

427
00:24:01,770 --> 00:24:03,210
It's like I love women.

428
00:24:03,270 --> 00:24:06,030
Cindy Kierner: I think he is
saying that. I think he is,

429
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:10,440
among other things, you know,
trying to agree with Hannah,

430
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,000
either sincerely or maybe
insincerely, while knowing that

431
00:24:15,030 --> 00:24:20,340
even if he agreed with her like
1000% no one could expect him to

432
00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:24,690
change things. And I think the
last bit about basically, yeah,

433
00:24:24,690 --> 00:24:27,840
you know, I'd be happy with you
guys voting, but it's not really

434
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,330
going to help you. I mean, I
think what he's saying is, I

435
00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:33,780
love women. Women are great, but
they don't really need this,

436
00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:37,590
right? Because we men will take
care of them. I mean, it's not

437
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:40,650
exactly chauvinistic, but it's
very paternalistic, right? It's

438
00:24:40,650 --> 00:24:43,740
like you don't have to worry,
because we'll take care of you.

439
00:24:43,740 --> 00:24:47,490
And in fact, you know the entire
common law of marriage,

440
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:51,810
coverture and all of that is
based on the same premise that

441
00:24:51,810 --> 00:24:54,630
women are weak and they need
taken care of. Now I don't think

442
00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:58,830
that Richard Henry Lee would say
that women were weak. I mean,

443
00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:02,640
his sister surely wasn't. But I
think he would say that, you

444
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,910
know, men are up to the task of
taking care of women, which, of

445
00:25:05,910 --> 00:25:09,510
course, is highly debatable,
both in their time and in ours.

446
00:25:10,319 --> 00:25:12,393
Kathryn Gehred: And that sort of
makes me think of your most

447
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,269
recent book, The Tory's Wife. Or
the assumption is that if a

448
00:25:15,317 --> 00:25:17,863
woman is married, then her
husband is representing her

449
00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:20,598
politically, like that's her
sort of protection and legal

450
00:25:20,645 --> 00:25:23,285
protection. But that's not
always the case. We know that

451
00:25:23,332 --> 00:25:26,114
married couples don't always
agree politically, and then in

452
00:25:26,162 --> 00:25:28,802
the case of Jane Spurgin, we
know that she had different

453
00:25:28,849 --> 00:25:30,500
political beliefs than her husband.

454
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,650
Cindy Kierner: Yeah, yeah. For
me, the big question is, did the

455
00:25:34,650 --> 00:25:39,000
political beliefs cause the
breakup of their marriage, or

456
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,420
did their estrangement cause the
difference in political beliefs.

457
00:25:42,930 --> 00:25:48,180
I don't think it necessarily
matters, but I think the larger

458
00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:52,560
point is that, just like you
know, the sort of cliche is, you

459
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,560
know, brother against brother,
well, can also be brother

460
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,040
against sister. It can also be
husband against wife. When

461
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,390
you're talking about the
revolution, which scholars now

462
00:26:03,390 --> 00:26:06,960
pretty much agree was, among
other things, a brutal civil

463
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,480
war. Hannah and Richard were on
the same side.

464
00:26:09,900 --> 00:26:13,770
Kathryn Gehred: It seems like
the Lees agreed, yeah. Now the

465
00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:16,260
whole paragraph where he goes
into percentage of profits on

466
00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:20,040
tobacco, I will admit that's a
hard part for me to follow that

467
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,430
entire paragraph. Do you have an
idea of what's going on there?

468
00:26:23,850 --> 00:26:27,180
Cindy Kierner: I mean, tobacco
and the land and the enslaved

469
00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:29,910
people that produced it was such
a fundamental part of these

470
00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:34,470
people's lives that it pops up
in all sorts of discussions. And

471
00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:38,160
at this time, Hannah was
overseeing several tobacco

472
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,210
producing plantations, and we
don't have her letter to

473
00:26:42,210 --> 00:26:48,120
Richard, but I imagine that her
letter to Richard included a

474
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,630
paragraph discussing tobacco
prices or what have you, and

475
00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:55,050
that he's responding to that
discussion here. It's also

476
00:26:55,050 --> 00:26:58,920
possible that she was somehow
involved in watching over

477
00:26:58,950 --> 00:27:03,030
Richard's tobacco or plantation
interest. While he was away in

478
00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:07,200
Philadelphia, he was a widower
Richard, so he had no wife to

479
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,170
look over his business interest,
which is often what happened in

480
00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:14,100
families when the husband went
off to serve in Congress or in

481
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:18,420
the state legislature or in war.
The other thing that's going on

482
00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:22,230
in that paragraph is he's
talking about inflation, and you

483
00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:25,860
know how the prices of things
have risen, and he's talking

484
00:27:25,860 --> 00:27:28,860
about that, I guess, in relation
to the amount of taxes people

485
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:33,180
are paying and why they're going
up. Yet it underlines the extent

486
00:27:33,180 --> 00:27:38,460
to which tobacco is such a basic
part of these people's lived

487
00:27:38,460 --> 00:27:42,690
experience, in terms of where
they live, the environment in

488
00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:46,170
which they lived, in the economy
in which they operated.

489
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:48,570
Kathryn Gehred: I have a pet
theory, just from my work on the

490
00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:51,990
Martha Washington papers, that
the specific details of how

491
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,480
tobacco consignment was done in
England is a much bigger reason

492
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,360
for the American War of
Independence than it's sometimes

493
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:02,880
given credit for I know people
have so many millions of

494
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,940
arguments about why the American
Revolution was fought, but I

495
00:28:05,940 --> 00:28:08,490
feel like the specifics of the
tobacco trade were pretty

496
00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:09,210
significant.

497
00:28:09,330 --> 00:28:11,340
Cindy Kierner: Well there's a
book by T.H. Breen called

498
00:28:11,340 --> 00:28:17,760
Tobacco Culture. He argues that
for Virginia planters who are

499
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:22,710
still doing tobacco and still
doing the consignment method,

500
00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:25,950
that's like a really important
issue. But the fact of the

501
00:28:25,950 --> 00:28:29,310
matter is that a lot of Virginia
planters are no longer doing

502
00:28:29,310 --> 00:28:33,030
tobacco, hardly for that reason,
right? And that if it was just

503
00:28:33,030 --> 00:28:36,600
Virginia planters who were angry
about tobacco, it wouldn't have

504
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,290
been a very big revolution,
right? So like George Washington

505
00:28:40,290 --> 00:28:44,340
is all in on wheat by the time
we get to this period. And

506
00:28:44,340 --> 00:28:47,760
clearly, people in places like
Pennsylvania and Massachusetts

507
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,730
and even the Carolinas or South
Carolina, they're not growing

508
00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:53,250
tobacco. They're doing other
things. But yeah, you're right.

509
00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:56,910
I mean, all of this sort of
figures into it in one way or

510
00:28:56,910 --> 00:28:57,360
another.

511
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,430
Kathryn Gehred: Now let's see.
So when he talks about

512
00:28:59,460 --> 00:29:04,560
revolutionary language around
how taxation is like slavery,

513
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:07,530
that makes me wonder about,
obviously, we don't have her

514
00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:09,990
letter. We don't know exactly
what she was asking. But do you

515
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:13,620
think she brought up she sort of
tied in her ideas about taxation

516
00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:16,800
without representation to the
actual revolution.

517
00:29:16,990 --> 00:29:19,120
Cindy Kierner: You know, that
was like a standard slogan,

518
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,050
right? Going back to the days of
the Stamp Act, the issue was

519
00:29:23,050 --> 00:29:26,800
taxation without representation.
It seems to me that Hannah is

520
00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:30,280
obviously raising that issue.
She's also raising the issue of

521
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,530
the high cost of taxes, so it's
kind of like doubly offensive to

522
00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:38,680
her that she doesn't get
representation, and if she did,

523
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:44,770
she surely would not have taxes
be that high. And she likely did

524
00:29:44,770 --> 00:29:49,900
use that trope of slavery that
Richard also is using, which was

525
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,870
really common and here, of
course, slavery doesn't really

526
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:58,030
refer to the real thing, like
with black people. Rather, it

527
00:29:58,210 --> 00:30:02,440
was a trope that they used. Used
to describe what they saw as the

528
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,980
violation of white people's
rights by the king in Parliament

529
00:30:05,980 --> 00:30:12,400
during the Imperial crisis. I
think Richard, in response, was

530
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,510
saying that whatever taxation
Hannah or other Virginians were

531
00:30:16,510 --> 00:30:20,680
being subject to, as you know,
unpleasant as it might be, was

532
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,520
still a huge improvement over
what had been the situation

533
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,780
during the colonial period,
especially in the 1760s and 70s,

534
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:32,290
for several reasons. First of
all, because the Virginia

535
00:30:32,290 --> 00:30:36,550
legislators who enacted
Revolutionary era taxes were

536
00:30:36,550 --> 00:30:40,750
local men who would also have to
pay them. And so that's an

537
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:43,390
argument that Americans
expressed during the Imperial

538
00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:47,260
crisis. One of the reasons why
they object to Parliament taxing

539
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:51,280
them is that Parliament could
levy enormous taxes on people

540
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,970
living in the American colonies,
and they wouldn't have to pay

541
00:30:54,970 --> 00:30:57,640
any of them, but people in
Virginia, New York, or whatever

542
00:30:57,670 --> 00:31:01,930
would have to. And then the
second thing that he brings up

543
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,910
is Richard Henry Lee says, look,
there are far fewer officials,

544
00:31:07,060 --> 00:31:11,440
what he calls placement, drawing
government salaries, collecting

545
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:17,320
taxes here than there had been
during the colonial period. So

546
00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:20,710
not only are the taxes more
legitimate, but they're also

547
00:31:20,740 --> 00:31:25,150
kind of more cost effective in
that way. And also, under the

548
00:31:25,150 --> 00:31:29,560
new Virginia regime, those
officials were also subject to

549
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:32,860
the people's approval. You know
who were the people will not

550
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:35,110
Hannah Lee Corbin, because she
doesn't have the right to vote,

551
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:38,080
but at least some people's
approval. And that's the whole

552
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,740
discussion of Mr. Fauntleroy,
which kind of seems like, you

553
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:44,650
know, who is this and why do we
care? Well, apparently, he

554
00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:49,390
wasn't a very good tax assessor,
and Richard was suggesting that.

555
00:31:49,390 --> 00:31:52,030
Well, you know, if Hannah's
complaining about him, maybe a

556
00:31:52,030 --> 00:31:54,400
lot of other people are
complaining about him. He's not

557
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,910
doing a very good job, and he'll
be history, so to speak.

558
00:31:58,030 --> 00:32:00,370
Kathryn Gehred: I like the idea
that he did such a bad job tax

559
00:32:00,370 --> 00:32:03,820
assessing that she she's like,
Hey, give me the right to vote.

560
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,670
Cindy Kierner: We're gonna get
that Fauntleroy. Well, then the

561
00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:11,730
other thing about Fauntleroy is,
I mean, I Googled him just

562
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:14,250
because, I mean, I don't know
who he was. And, I mean, I did

563
00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:17,640
find little bits of information
about who I think this person

564
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,620
was. And I guess the really
salient point is that Fauntleroy

565
00:32:22,620 --> 00:32:26,190
and arguably the other tax
assessors as well, were

566
00:32:26,190 --> 00:32:30,630
significantly below the lease in
the social hierarchy. So

567
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:33,960
basically, this guy is like
coming to the homes of the

568
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,370
gentry and saying, Hey, you owe
this much pay up. And a lot of

569
00:32:38,370 --> 00:32:42,300
people are angry about the cost
of taxes in the colonial period,

570
00:32:42,510 --> 00:32:46,470
Hannah Lee Corbin has this extra
layer of unhappiness because she

571
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:47,850
has no representation.

572
00:32:48,030 --> 00:32:50,970
Kathryn Gehred: Always the tax
assessors are the most beloved

573
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:55,350
people. I had a comment about
the PS at the end, but reading

574
00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:57,720
it again, I feel like it's
probably just because he's

575
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,390
writing it a week later. So he
adds a PS, but like the little

576
00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:03,480
family news that he adds at the
end that her brother is so sick.

577
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:06,180
To me, it seemed like he was
being a little snippy the first

578
00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:08,520
time I read it. But looking at
it again, I'm not sure

579
00:33:08,660 --> 00:33:10,850
Cindy Kierner: One of the
reasons why people wrote letters

580
00:33:10,850 --> 00:33:15,410
during this period is basically
to say, look, I'm still alive.

581
00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:19,010
Or, look, you know, your brother
is still alive. One of my

582
00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:23,420
favorite Jefferson letters of
all time is like, literally one

583
00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:26,690
sentence that he writes to his
daughter Martha, while he's

584
00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:31,610
president. And I'm obviously
paraphrasing, but it's basically

585
00:33:31,610 --> 00:33:35,810
like, yeah, not dead yet. The
whole idea that illness and

586
00:33:35,810 --> 00:33:39,950
disease is everywhere medical
science, I mean, I always

587
00:33:39,950 --> 00:33:42,950
enclose in air quotes, because,
you know, sometimes you're

588
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:46,850
better off without it. And when
you read a lot of these letters,

589
00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:50,360
there is always a line, usually
at the beginning or at the end,

590
00:33:50,660 --> 00:33:54,260
saying, everyone in the family
is healthy, or everyone in the

591
00:33:54,260 --> 00:33:58,580
family is healthy, except for
Mary, who has a fever. And so

592
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:04,190
the way I read that PS is that
that is one of the really common

593
00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:08,150
functions of letters during this
period, to let people know that

594
00:34:08,150 --> 00:34:10,730
you're not dead yet, or that
your brother's not dead yet, or

595
00:34:10,730 --> 00:34:14,270
that they've recovered, or
whatever. You know, I also think

596
00:34:14,270 --> 00:34:19,610
Richard was probably getting
tired that's with a quill pen

597
00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:23,900
while he's presumably got other
things to do, it would be great

598
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:27,320
if we had her letter. But yes,
alas.

599
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,160
Kathryn Gehred: Maybe that's why
he's sort of wistful at the

600
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,650
beginning, like we could clear
this up in a conversation.

601
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,770
Cindy Kierner: Yeah, right,
exactly, exactly. But we're

602
00:34:34,770 --> 00:34:37,200
really glad that they didn't,
because then we wouldn't even

603
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,280
have his letter.

604
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:41,010
Kathryn Gehred: Yes, exactly.
And that's why I like reading

605
00:34:41,010 --> 00:34:43,440
the whole letter, is you do get
those little bits of family

606
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,120
information, which I enjoy.

607
00:34:45,210 --> 00:34:46,710
Cindy Kierner: And one of the
things that I found out about

608
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:49,170
this letter, which I did not
know before, which is like,

609
00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:54,570
super interesting, is so the way
most people get this letter is

610
00:34:54,570 --> 00:34:57,900
it's published in a collection
of the letters of Richard Henry

611
00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:01,530
Lee that I think is two volumes.
And I. Think was published in

612
00:35:01,530 --> 00:35:07,230
the 1880s maybe 1890s there is a
little footnote in that book

613
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,700
that says that the editors of
that collection got the letter

614
00:35:12,030 --> 00:35:18,720
from a newspaper in Alexandria.
It was published in 1875 so

615
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:23,010
basically, it was undiscovered
for like, almost a century, and

616
00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:27,450
the other people who published
it were Elizabeth Cady Stanton

617
00:35:27,450 --> 00:35:30,120
and Susan B. Anthony in their
history of the women's suffrage

618
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,910
movement. And so I don't know,
oh, wow, if Stanton and Anthony

619
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:39,630
published it first and then it
got exerted in this Alexandria

620
00:35:39,630 --> 00:35:43,020
newspaper, or it was the other
way around. And this is like

621
00:35:43,020 --> 00:35:48,030
Richard Henry Lee's letter, even
his letter on this issue was

622
00:35:48,030 --> 00:35:52,200
sort of buried, or kind of, I
mean, obviously not destroyed,

623
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:58,110
but not paid attention to in any
way, until the 19th century

624
00:35:58,140 --> 00:36:02,310
women's suffrage movement, the
point of their collection was,

625
00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:07,350
at least in part, to look for
precedence so that they could

626
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,460
make the argument that look I
mean, we're not the first people

627
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,510
to air these grievances, and
we're not the first people to

628
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:18,000
ask for, you know,
representation or some

629
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,530
satisfaction. In that regard,
they were creating, in effect, a

630
00:36:22,530 --> 00:36:27,000
history of feminism to make
feminism seem like it was more

631
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,960
credible and more, I don't know,
American or whatever, huh?

632
00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:33,630
Kathryn Gehred: That's
fascinating. When I was doing

633
00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:36,300
research on this letter, I found
that the Library of Congress has

634
00:36:36,330 --> 00:36:39,870
Elizabeth Cady Stanton's notes,
and she lists Hannah as one of

635
00:36:39,870 --> 00:36:45,030
the like feminist foremothers,
yeah, which is pretty neat.

636
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,250
Cindy Kierner: It is pretty
neat. But, you know, I mean, I

637
00:36:47,250 --> 00:36:51,780
also wonder how someone like
Hannah Lee Corbin, or even, you

638
00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:55,770
know, Abigail Adams would react
to that, you know, I mean, in

639
00:36:55,770 --> 00:36:58,560
certain ways, Hannah Lee Corbin
was very conservative. She never

640
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,340
frees her slaves. She never
tells her own children, oh,

641
00:37:02,340 --> 00:37:06,930
don't marry, because marriage is
a patriarchal, evil institution.

642
00:37:07,140 --> 00:37:11,970
She's not looking to leave a
feminist legacy. But, you know,

643
00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:14,040
she's dead so they could say
what they want.

644
00:37:14,430 --> 00:37:16,890
Kathryn Gehred: Well, yeah, I
mean, to take a historical

645
00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:19,440
figure and use them for
political purpose. It's

646
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,720
interesting to see how that's
happened to her over time?

647
00:37:21,780 --> 00:37:25,380
Cindy Kierner: Yeah, it's been
known to happen. Well, I mean,

648
00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:28,950
it obviously it happens with,
you know, Abigail Adams as well.

649
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:32,040
But the thing is, we have
Abigail Adams's words so people

650
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,760
can sort of debate on both
sides. Well, you know, no, she

651
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,280
wasn't asking for the right to
vote. Was she asking for an end

652
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,420
of coverture? Was she asking
for, you know, whatever. And I

653
00:37:42,420 --> 00:37:45,840
think well and scholars have
come up with a lot of different

654
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,800
interpretations of what she
wanted. Hannah Corbin, at least,

655
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,310
apparently, was very clear in
the specific thing that she

656
00:37:53,310 --> 00:37:57,210
wanted. She didn't want women to
have the right to vote. She

657
00:37:57,210 --> 00:38:01,170
wanted widows and single women
with property to have the right

658
00:38:01,170 --> 00:38:03,480
to vote. So she didn't take
issue with the property

659
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,680
qualification, and she didn't
take issue, apparently, with

660
00:38:07,710 --> 00:38:12,630
marriage being a sort of
disqualifying thing for women to

661
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:16,950
own property or to have the
right to vote. And of course, we

662
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:19,950
know married women's property
acts don't really happen until

663
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:24,450
the 1840s at best, and in some
places a lot longer after that,

664
00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:28,020
in Virginia, it's like
reconstruction, which is insane.

665
00:38:28,110 --> 00:38:30,900
Kathryn Gehred: Yeah. Is there
any other point that you really

666
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:31,590
wanted to get to?

667
00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:38,050
Cindy Kierner: Just that
clearly, she was very aware of

668
00:38:38,050 --> 00:38:40,150
what was going on politically,
and not just as politics related

669
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:50,020
directly to her and her
interests. So the last paragraph

670
00:38:50,260 --> 00:38:53,800
of the body of the letter where
Richard is saying this with the

671
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,370
other horrid comments of
slavery, he goes down and he

672
00:38:57,370 --> 00:39:04,030
talks about getting a refund for
her and Dr Hall's subscriptions

673
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:09,340
for Lord Camden's picture. Now,
Lord Camden was this British

674
00:39:09,550 --> 00:39:15,790
nobleman who was one of a
handful of important British

675
00:39:15,790 --> 00:39:20,590
political figures who were
really outspoken in terms of

676
00:39:20,770 --> 00:39:24,640
supporting the Americans in
their protest during the

677
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,480
Imperial crisis. I mean, this is
why we have Camden, New Jersey.

678
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,630
Camden, South Carolina, you
know, the same way, like all

679
00:39:31,630 --> 00:39:34,300
these places, are named after
William Pitt for the same

680
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:36,970
reason, who later becomes the
Earl of Chatham. So there's

681
00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:39,760
Pittsburgh and Pittsboro and
Chatham, and you know, all of

682
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:46,360
that. And so Camden, I think
even at the time, was a less

683
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,220
famous version of a kind of pro
American voice than, say,

684
00:39:51,220 --> 00:39:55,510
someone like William Pitt. But
yet, she and Dr. Hall, I mean,

685
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:58,810
before he died, were buying
pictures of the guy to hang in

686
00:39:58,810 --> 00:40:04,000
their house. So, I mean. And on
the one hand, it shows that as

687
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:11,710
late as 1774 when Dr. Hall was
alive, Hannah and Dr. Hall are

688
00:40:12,130 --> 00:40:16,900
really pulling for there to be a
reconciliation on terms

689
00:40:16,900 --> 00:40:21,070
favorable to the Americans, and
that there, as indeed were most

690
00:40:21,070 --> 00:40:24,970
colonists at that point, but
they're keenly aware of the

691
00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:29,410
political debates that are going
on, not only in Williamsburg,

692
00:40:29,740 --> 00:40:32,740
but also in London. I thought
that that was really

693
00:40:32,740 --> 00:40:35,560
interesting. I mean, I thought
it was also really interesting

694
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,830
that now, since that whole thing
didn't work out, and they've got

695
00:40:38,830 --> 00:40:42,460
independence now, she wants her
money back, damn it, and

696
00:40:42,460 --> 00:40:45,130
apparently she's gonna get it.
So that's kind of cool.

697
00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:48,070
Kathryn Gehred: Thank you. I
didn't even look into that, but

698
00:40:48,070 --> 00:40:51,310
that's awesome. That's so
interesting. Well, thank you so

699
00:40:51,310 --> 00:40:53,620
much for coming on the show. Dr.
Kierner, this was awesome.

700
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:54,580
Cindy Kierner: Yeah, super fun.

701
00:40:54,670 --> 00:40:58,510
Kathryn Gehred: We will provide
links to this letter and other

702
00:40:58,510 --> 00:41:02,650
information in the show notes
for my listeners, thank you very

703
00:41:02,650 --> 00:41:06,100
much for listening, and I am as
ever, your most obedient and

704
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:12,610
humble servant. Thank you very
much. Your Most Obedient &

705
00:41:12,610 --> 00:41:16,180
Humble Servant is a production
of R2 Studios, part of the Roy

706
00:41:16,180 --> 00:41:19,450
Rosenzweig Center for History
and New Media at George Mason

707
00:41:19,450 --> 00:41:23,710
University. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of this

708
00:41:23,710 --> 00:41:27,790
podcast, Jeanette Patrick and
Jim Ambuske are the executive

709
00:41:27,790 --> 00:41:32,380
producers. Special thanks to
Virginia Humanities for allowing

710
00:41:32,380 --> 00:41:35,800
me to use their recording
studio. If you enjoyed this

711
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,130
episode, please tell a friend
and be sure to rate and review

712
00:41:39,130 --> 00:41:43,600
the series in your podcast app
for more great history podcasts,

713
00:41:43,630 --> 00:41:48,070
head to r2studios.org, thanks
for listening.