Episode 6 - Teeth

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 6 - “Teeth”
Published on September 1, 2020

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hi, everybody, Kathryn here. Just wanted to give you a quick heads up that this week we had some technical difficulties with our audio, and so there's a little bit of an interesting echoing noise and some odd cuts in there, but it gets better as it goes along, so please bear with us. Thank you.

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. Today, I'm very excited to be joined by one of my former colleagues and my good friend Brontë de Cárdenas. So Bronte tell me a little bit about yourself and your career in history so far.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Um, hi. Yeah. So I'm currently working at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's home, and I've had different roles there over the years and currently a guide. I've been mostly in Education Department, also working as a research assistant with web content on slavery, short stint at Colonial Williamsburg, as well, I was a student at William and Mary, studying history, Latin American History, Museum Studies, and I also got a chance to work with the Lemon Project there, and the African American history in the Williamsburg area. I'm really excited to be here.

Kathryn Gehred 

Glad to have you all. So you play the harpsichord. Right?

Brontë de Cárdenas

I did. So while I was at William and Mary, I wanted to take music because I'm a music person, and I needed something to call my nerves in the academic environment of that place. The professor only had harpsichord spots left and I was like, 'Well, hey, I think the perfect person to do it perfect nerd.' So yeah, I did that with him, and there were only like two harpsichords on campus like in his studio. We got I got the key to his studio and got to go practice and stuff. And oh my gosh, that's, yeah, it was great. And of course, he was really excited about it. He was like, You need to buy a harpsichord, which my family was not keen on and I still have not done it to this day, unfortunately.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, well, so you're particularly suited to talk about eighteenth and early nineteenth century women, right? You've got sort of the the culture.

Brontë de Cárdenas

To the point that I've literally played harpsichords. I'm not trying to catch a man, which may be a difference in our musical education.

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, speaking of catching a man. We're gonna go into this week's letter. This one is yet another letter from one of Thomas Jefferson's granddaughters. If you have listened to all the episodes of the podcast, we featured another Thomas Jefferson granddaughter letter earlier. This one though, is from Ellen Wayles Randolph. Later she marries a man named Joseph Coolidge. So her full name is Ellen Wayles, Randolph Coolidge. She's Jefferson's second oldest granddaughter, and she is a very engaging writer. Bronte, you're, you're pretty familiar with the grandkids. Tell me what you really feel about Ellen. Who?

Brontë de Cárdenas

Yeah, so I have to say that early on, I loved her. And I, I thought she was so interesting. And I haven't been able to find this information. I haven't done a lot of digging. But one time, I heard that anecdote that one of her cousins said that she could have been the president had she not been a woman, and I'd have to look more into that. But it always remains the same that she was a brilliant woman. And she was, I think, pretty badass and and a lot of ways, she waited a long time to get married, and she was very picky. She had a lot of suitors. So there are all these cool anecdotes about her that she's very smart. She, she was considered kind of homely, but also stylish, like homely, and in her face, right, but she was very stylish and elegant and like, sought after because she was smart, and witty and like was lit up in conversation, but I, as I learned more about other people on the plantation, I have to say my feelings on her have been complicated, because one of those examples would be when Frances Wright comes to Monticello, she was an early feminist. She, in the sense that she was writing to all these intellectuals, male intellectuals around the world, including Jefferson, and she had some very radical ideas on the world. And when she was at Monticello, she did not shy away from those ideas, progressive radical ideas, and Ellen was none too pleased. She said something like, she talks to like too much like a man or she, like she talks with the men too much and removes herself from the women. But the women aren't really getting to, to delve into that stuff. And Frances Wright is clearly making the decision that she's really into it. Ellen was really harsh on this woman that was clearly very progressive. And then I was reading more up on slavery at Monticello for the work that I was doing on the website, this quote that I had seen from her. I had seen it before about educating this young enslaved girl, and it looks so nice.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Brontë de Cárdenas

But then when you read the whole letter, it's actually has more to do with taking that girl from her parents. Her father was Burwell Colbert, who was the enslaved Butler at Monticello. So it takes on quite a bit of a white feminism lens, or the white liberal Savior I guess you could say. It's there's there's just some weird themes happening there where she's maybe not, not the hero I wanted her to be when I was first learning about her, I guess. So she's more complicated character, but certainly a fascinating one.

Kathryn Gehred 

That's I think it's interesting that you talk about sort of like the white savior narrative with that, because people might say that it's a, like a more modern lens to put on the past, but if you look at like the whole Jefferson family, and the way that they talk about slavery. 'It's always slavery is so bad, slavery is so wrong, we're so against slavery.' But when it comes to actually doing anything to end the institution of slavery, Jefferson does not do as much as he could have. And when it comes to actually treating enslaved people, as like, actual human beings, no one in his family does. So I think that's actually I think you make a really good point there.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Yeah. I mean, if the if the description fits, then it helps us understand the past, I say, let's use it.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so I'm gonna give a little bit of context for the time period of this letter. We've had some anecdotes about Ellen when she was younger. She's a little bit older. This letter comes from April 1819. It's a letter from Ellen to her mother, Martha Jefferson Randolph, and again, when these sisters and brothers are sending letters back home, they are expecting for these letters to be read out loud to the family, they're sort of anticipating that everyone's gonna hear what's up because everyone's interested in family news. So, it makes sense to read them out loud in an audio medium, Ellen's 23 At the time this letter was written, she's visiting Richmond with her sister Virginia, who's about 18 at that time. Virginia has actually, the year before, this been proposed to by Nicholas Trist, the man she eventually marries, but Martha, the mother, says no. She makes Virginia wait before she gets married. Martha Jefferson Randolph got married when she was very young, didn't end super happily, her older daughter and Carrie got married when she was super young, that also didn't end very happily. So Martha's a little bit nervous about getting married, right when you're 17. Whereas meanwhile, fun fact, George Washington's granddaughter, or Martha Washington's granddaughter calls her she starts calling herself a spinster when she's like 16 years old.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Oh, the times have changed.

Kathryn Gehred 

And she's she's a little, she's joking a bit as she does it, but that's really honestly not that unusual for this time period. So okay, so...

Brontë de Cárdenas

But I feel like people do that now. It's like, oh, I'm never gonna find anybody that's like, 'Sweetie, you're 20.'

Kathryn Gehred 

So this is they are visiting Richmond. Their father has business in Richmond. So, it's not exactly the social season. This isn't like when they're going there in January and everybody's having all these parties. They're just there because they happen to be there. Some key players to know some first names that get mentioned. They mentioned Mrs. Roane, who invites them to a party. This is actually Anne Henry Roane, who is one of Patrick Henry's daughters, and she was married to Spencer Roane, who was at this time in 1819, member of the Virginia General Court. He was a hardcore Democratic Republican, which is Thomas Jefferson's party. He supported James Madison's presidency. So, whether or not the Roane were at their house a lot, it makes sense that they were friends with the Jefferson family. They also mentioned, the Miss Nicholas's. That would be Margaret Nicholas and Sarah Nicholas, two daughters of former Virginia governor and friend of Thomas Jefferson, Wilson Cary Nicholas, a lot of Nicholas's feature in this letter, their sister Jane Nicolas had married Ellen and Virginia's brother, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, so they're sort of in laws in a weird extended way, with all these big families marrying into each other. Basically, this is just the context of a fairly usual, uneventful family visit in Richmond, but Ellen tries to squeeze in a little bit of socializing. Alright, so are you ready? Brontë?

Brontë de Cárdenas

I'm ready.

Kathryn Gehred

All right. Oh, also content warning. This letter does contain some descriptions of eighteenth century dentistry, which might not be suitable for all listeners. If you are somebody that gets upset by stuff like this, I will let you know before I get to that.

Brontë de Cárdenas

A little cringe worthy.

Kathryn Gehred

"Ellen Wayles Randolph to Martha Jefferson Randolph. Richmond, April 25, 1819. I expected to have left Richmond in the stage which carries this letter, my dear mother, but Papa's business will detain him some days longer. Virginia is decided to return home at the same time, as she does not consider that the pleasures of the town will compensate for the loss of the society of her family. Indeed, just now Richmond is anything but gay, and she could expect no amusement except for what is to be found within the walls of the boarding school. We were all invited to a party and Mrs. Roane's the other evening, and the Miss Nicholases called to invite us to go with them and return at night to their house as the distance from the other hill to this place is great and the streets very bad. Nothing but my great anxiety that the girls should see a little of the world introduced me to to accede to this proposal, as I feared that the family would be put to some inconvenience by having to lodge so many of us. I thought, however, I knew the geography of the house and that this inconvenience need not be very greatm and I almost regretted having given way to my inclinations. What I found the general dislodgement which our party occasioned, and particularly as the girls went entirely from my persuasions and decidedly against their own wishes. The consequence of this unwillingness was an utter neglect of the necessary preparations. And although I exerted myself to the utmost, I could not anticipate all their necessities, and when we went to dress, there was such breaking of strings and snapping of laces, such pulling and pinching and pinning, and so many concealments to make, and so much time consumed in these various operations that I almost cried with vexation. Virginia was the best of the two and her shoulders kept popping from under her corsets in petticoats, so that by the end of the evening, she was almost undressed. This was partly my fault for in my anxiety to show the turn of the shoulder through a muslin frock, unencumbered with straps and strings, I pulled her clothes too low. Harriet had spent the day reading a novel, and when she dressed in the evening found that she had picked up a petticoat without a body, which displayed to great advantage a thick, yellow looking flannel jacket with sleeves almost to the elbows under a muslin frock. Before the clock struck nine. My young ladies were ready, and I have no time for my own toilet, bundled myself up after the fashion of Mrs. Morris to accompany them."

Mrs. Morris is actually a reference to their aunt and Carrie Morris who's married to Gouverneur Morris. And I feel like this is her saying that she's just dressed a little frumpy.

Brontë de Cárdenas

I totally think that's what she's saying. There's a whole theme going on here related to frumpiness.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, so she styled herself up after the fashion of Mrs. Morris to accompany them.

"Virginia was the best dressed and much the best figure of the two, but the transcendent loveliness of Harriet's face excited, I believe, general admiration, that warmth of coloring for which she is remarkable. The rich, sunny curls, which shaded her forehead and the brilliancy of her eyes made her a subject for painting, whilst a mixed expression of bashfulness and playfulness and sarcasm, placed her countenance above the painters art. Both of the girls acknowledged that they were not as much tireder as they expected to be, and that the evening passed pleasantly enough, there were no young men of any sort of distinction. Indeed, there are at present none in Richmond, either natives or visitors. Francis Gilmer even has left us to go with Mr. Patterson to Georgia. I tried to make the girls regret Wilson Nicholas's absence, but they obstinately refused to feel or express even the smallest dissatisfaction on that subject."

Brontë de Cárdenas

I love that these girls are so adamant about their feelings and how they're just like, No, I don't care about that, dude. Don't make me be a woman, Ellen.

Kathryn Gehred 

Let me read my novel Ellen. Stop making me go to this party. All right, so that's that's the first section. So this is the the outing. Was there anything in that section of the letter that struck you as funny or relatable Brontë.

Brontë de Cárdenas

When you were talking about her being frumpy and dressing like Mrs. Norris, I think I think there's a whole thing here about her being the big sister, which is something I relate to because I'm a big sister by only a year and a half, but I certainly took it much more seriously. And, I think that that's what Ellen's doing here. I think she's being she's, she's like 23 here. She's old enough. And certainly by the standards of the time, she's old, but she's clearly like corralling these girls and so there's so much language around it like my "my young ladies were ready," ladies, and she's like writing to her mom like giving her the news about the family and orchestrating the schedules and everything. She said, I having no time for my toilet, bundle myself up like the frumpy woman, the matronly woman that I am and I just want you to read 23 And I feel like I can't tell if this is because I read this stuff where she's considered stylish, and I like a great conversationalist, and like well sought after by like suitors. I don't know if she's creating this image of herself, or she's just feeling very self important.

Kathryn Gehred 

That's interesting. So I feel like this is a little bit self deprecating, but I think that she, I don't think that necessarily means that she isn't somebody who's usually very well dressed. I feel like it would be because she's so used to being well dressed and pretty, that she's a little bit and a little annoyed that she ended up going as frumpy as she ended up looking.

Brontë de Cárdenas

But, it almost seems like she doesn't want to go on some level.

Kathryn Gehred

None of them do.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Nothing but my great anxiety that the girl should see a little of the world and do so to accede to this proposal. I love how you stress that like Richmond is the world.

Kathryn Gehred.

The world. Yes.

Brontë de Cárdenas

And I find it interesting considering we talked about how Nicholas Trist had already proposed to Virginia.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Brontë de Cárdenas

So, she doesn't need to find a man.

Kathryn Gehred 

Right. And I think she's sort of like she's done. I think she doesn't want to.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Well, yeah, dating is over, she gets that part over with like who wants to keep going on dates?

Kathryn Gehred 

And then of course, her sister dresses her up, so her clothes are falling off.

Brontë de Cárdenas

I think that's also very relatable, because I have definitely been getting ready at the last minute. And I have to say, I'm not somebody who's, like really good at getting dressed. Although one time I went, and we were married, we're gonna go to a party, and my friend was going to do my makeup cuz I don't do makeup. And it took so much longer than I anticipated. I was like, Oh, she's gonna like, just do a few little things. It's a whole production, which it clearly sounds like it's happening here, and on top of that, they don't have all their stuff.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. I think it's interesting that they felt like they were imposing on the Nicholases a little bit and like to have three people come stay with them on short notice, even though they were invited, but they also didn't want to be in an imposition. I thought that was an interesting little vibe, too. It's like, it sounds like it could be like a fun sleepover, or whatever, you know, like you're staying at your friend's house after a party, but they were worried that they were going to be too much of an imposition.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Yeah. And I think that that's probably all those social norms. I mean, we still do that today. Like, or do they mean that and I feel like now even more so to some extent, because we're all coming from different cultures. And we're all coming. You know, I was raised in Texas, but my mother's a Yankee. Like, I had no big culture shock. I don't know whose culture I'm following. You know, do you give the hostess time to put her lipstick on? Or do you show up on time, right? There's a whole, there's all these different cultural rules. And I think that they would have the same cultural rules, and some to some extent, but at the same time, there's a lot of guesswork and a lot of reservations and concerns about reputation, etc.

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh, totally. I think the way that she describes people's beauty is also interesting. Like her, her expression of sarcasm was "beyond the painters art. "I want anybody to describe me, as beyond the painters aren't.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Yeah, and she's describing it as art.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes. Yes. And, and all the all the effort that's going into this construction of themselves before they go to the party.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, it is work to create this image that they're putting together. 

Brontë de Cárdenas

It is interesting, like you said, sarcasm like I wouldn't have expected that to be.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Brontë de Cárdenas

A description of beauty, especially in a time when women are not really supposed to know, I don't know, your boldness is a fine line.

Kathryn Gehred

Right?

Brontë de Cárdenas

That you're walking. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, so like, how many people do you think would have? I feel like in real life, like maybe the gender roles of the time were pretty strict, but in real life, it is fun to talk to a sarcastic person. And even back then, that could be something that was considered attractive. Right?

Brontë de Cárdenas

Right. Yeah. Well, you know, even now, like people want like independent, outspoken women. I mean, that's more interesting to have like an actual human being talking to you than just someone sitting there playing the harpsichord.

Kathryn Gehred

Although harpsichords are great.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Although harpsichords are great, and I'm not diminishing that as an important factor in your marriageable like criteria.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think I'm gonna go into the next section of the letter. So again, content warning, she has a fun part of the letter where she talks about a party, and now we get into the business of dentistry.

"Virginia's teeth are done. There was so much to be done that it took two settings of more than two hours each. Her mouth is liberally spangled by a number of gold plugs. And Harriet says glitters most beautifully when she opens it by candlelight."

Brontë de Cárdenas

I'm sorry, that's just the best thing.

Kathryn Gehred 

It glitter's beautifully when she opens it by candlelight just so poetic and just flair, speaking of sarcasm a little bit, I think. Although maybe not. Maybe this was 18th century standards of beauty. Maybe having a ton of gold plugs in your teeth was actually super cool. I don't know, honestly.

Brontë de Cárdenas

There's so much there's a lot there.

Kathryn Gehred

None of the plugs are immediately in sight.

:The front tooth is we hope saved. It is filed and filled and looks quite well. The dentist separated her jaw teeth which were very much crowded, but did not draw one of them as she seemed unwilling, though not positively refusing. Three of Lucy's front teeth are filed and plugged but the fourth pronounced uncurable. You will be a little surprised to hear that I actually summoned courage for the drawing of one of the largest and firmest teeth in my head. I confess that when the instruments were fixed in my mouth, just at the second which preceded the tug, that dreadful second of expectation, I felt as if my senses were abandoning me, but I had my fright for my pains for the tooth broke short, what remained of it resisted five efforts coming away and fragments whilst the roots remained fast bedded in the jawbone a apparently unshaken by the exertion. I never saw anyone in such despair as the dentist."

Brontë de Cárdenas

Sure the dentist.

Kathryn Gehred

"He repeated 20 times that he had never seen teeth so thoroughly brittle, and that his strength and skill were like unavailing. I wished as I was under his hands, that he should finish the operation and extract the roots, but he advised me to let them remain, the gum would grow over them, and I should have no further trouble. His prediction appears to be accomplishing itself for the lancet wounds are rapidly healing. The operation long and tedious...

That is all of the letter that survives. So that is as to be where we ended. So, Brontë, how do you feel?

Brontë de Cárdenas

I just, ow! That's, I'm glad you gave a warning, because when I read that, both times I read that I like my my hands curl, like, wiggly, and I just so tense, because it Ouch. I mean, there's no talk of anesthesia.

Kathryn Gehred

Nope!

Brontë de Cárdenas

And to that end, and her stoicism surprises me and I find it very fascinating. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes! Again, yeah, it's the dentist who was in such despair.

Brontë de Cárdenas

It's the dentist, who's in such despair. And she's just like, the operation long and tedious doctor. Like tedious. I would be, I've had terrible medical experiences, and I was not I didn't think they were long and tedious. I thought they were traumatic.

Kathryn Gehred 

Right! Now that's, um, that is interesting. So just the word fragments really got me. One tooth broke short, they don't really have any sort of like, good anesthetic at this point. I think this is even before they were like giving people yeah, there really wasn't much. Maybe she's just being stoic, because this is what everybody had to go through to even like, have dentistry, but I can't imagine it. I feel like that would hurt so much that that would be all I was writing about to my mother.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Well, it doesn't sound that like so like, some of it sounds normal, right? Virginia. sounds normal. They're talking about it pretty normal. Right? But the way the way she's talking about the dentist freaking out makes me think that that does not happen on the regular. Like he's like, these are the most brittle teeth I've ever seen.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think that was also a little bit of like, self deprecating, like, I have the most brittle teeth? This dentist it blew his mind.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Well, and I can't I think the part that was hard for me, it's like, okay, you're getting your tooth pulled out without anesthesia, but then, like the fragments like you said, like going in, like what it was at five times? Don't prove repeated. Oh, he repeated 20 times that he seemed never seen treaties over No, but he went in multiple times to try to get the fragments out, resisted five efforts. I just, I think I don't really understand why they're pulling this tooth out. If it's like for overcrowding or what but I can't believe that it's actually going to be okay, just leaving this fragments. And because I don't know, I don't know anything about dentistry. Like it makes me think of dentistry as a science and like what knowledge was really available to them at that point.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, so I did a little bit of looking into like, what, what they were working with in at around this time period for dentistry, and I found obviously, I can't say that this is exactly the book that people were using. But I was able to find a William Nesbitt's book, it's a very long title, as these always are. But the clinical guide or concise view of the leading facts of the history, nature, treatment of such local diseases, blah, blah, blah, it has a section on teeth in there. And a lot of it was just frankly, too upsetting to repeat to you. But, I did want to say that one of the treatments for let's see, he says, "though the operation of extraction." So that's really I mean, I feel like eighteenth century, they really aren't operating with much like medical wise, they don't have as much knowledge, they're working on it, but they don't have much pulling a tooth out is one of those things that like we can do it like that tooth is bad, I'm gonna get it out of your mouth. Maybe it'll help. So he said, "tooth extraction is generally easy and successful, yet certain accidents have been known to attend it, which render a particular after treatment necessary. These are hemorrhage and inflammation." So, I don't know. I feel like Ellen has one of the unfortunate if you add a complication. Yeah, we're pulling the teeth and his treatment, he said was "warm Ammoliand fomentations in an application of heat in the form of Cataplasm by a roasted fig or onion."

Brontë de Cárdenas

Okay.

Kathryn Gehred

So roasted onion and put it in your mouth. And maybe you feel better because it's warm.

Brontë de Cárdenas

I mean, I guess there might be some, like, antimicrobial elements to that.

Kathryn Gehred

They don't about microbes.!

Brontë de Cárdenas

No, but they're just I mean, who knows what wisdom is like, I know that out in this age of men in science, but

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, this is my little sudden segment. It's a history of medicine, all of a sudden, in the middle of a women's history, podcast surprise.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Hey, it's intersectional in all respects,

Kathryn Gehred 

I think people had bad teeth. Teeth went bad, very common. If you are one of the people that was able to afford having a dentist or could have gold plugs put in that was probably good. A lot of people probably just didn't have teeth. And I think it's interesting that this is kind of the upper crust of society. This is, this is Thomas Jefferson's granddaughters and I know they didn't have a lot of money, but they had a lot of like, prestige and family connections,

Brontë de Cárdenas

And land rich.

Kathryn Gehred

Land rich. And they are still like young debutantes out there in their lovely dresses with a front tooth, not there. So I just think that's interesting.

Brontë de Cárdenas

The whole glittering thing. That's what got me about that. So, Harriet saying that it glitters most beautifully when she opens it by candlelight.

Kathryn Gehred

I love that poetic phrasing.

Brontë de Cárdenas

It just goes along with the whole, like, the hours that they just spent getting ready for this party. Like they put that much effort into their, into their dress, and then you can imagine them sitting at a party with gold teeth sparkling and this is not your BBC, yeah Jane Austin, this is some some pirate lookin' mouths at the fine ladies.

Kathryn Gehred

There is a lot that's relatable about these letters, and there's a lot that like, sort of from time immemorial, like getting ready to go out. There's something that you'll be able to find to empathize with, but then things really were very different, though, as well at the same time, and that's one of those things that like, people just wouldn't have teeth, it took a long time to get places. If you were in the country, you were a little bit secluded from everyone. Slavery is obviously happening in the background. It's never mentioned in these letters. But so like, there are like these dramatic differences that kind of jerk you out from relating so heavily to these letters.

Brontë de Cárdenas

It also makes you think about because there's so many similarities, it makes you think about what's going on in our own lives that would jump out as period specific for us, right? Because all these emotions, like the big sister thing like that, just I felt that so hard. But I, when I had to get my cavities filled, it was like an identity crisis, and I hated that. Like, there's my molars, like, nobody sees those. Nobody cares. It's like really common. And, and Americans especially we have, we're known for having great teeth.

Kathryn Gehred

This is a great point.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Now, but you know, there's, there's all this stuff about sugar too, and the elite having access to sugar, and, you know, maybe that had something to do with Virginia. And, and Ellen having terrible teeth when they're in their early 20s.

Kathryn Gehred 

Is also a great point. Yeah, because I think now you think of tooth decay as being something that people who are really poor and can't afford health insurance, that's something that is like a marker for that. But back then, people weighed a lot of sugar all the time. And there was no such thing really as like good tooth care. Maybe it was sort of the other way around. Yeah,

Brontë de Cárdenas

When and I think it makes sense that like, because you're talking about like access to dentistry, which we still have, right, that's not really often included. In anybody's idea of healthcare, unfortunately, but they are getting their teeth taken care of with gold fillings, right. Gold plugs, I guess, you know, her mouth is liberally spangled with gold. Yeah. But, if you're poor, and you have and you have teeth needing to be replaced, you probably just lose your teeth, like you said,

Kathryn Gehred

Right.

Brontë de Cárdenas

It's always about class.

Kathryn Gehred 

I did want to read there's a follow up letter that well this is okay. So this is later. So this is almost a year later. So I'm thinking that maybe the whole let's just leave the shards of your teeth in didn't actually work out too well, because there's another visit from a dentist in 1820, and so this is a letter written from Cornelia who is yet another one of those sisters Cornelia Virginia 19th 1820. She writes,

"I am truly rejoice to hear that sister Ellen found the operation on her teeth so much less than she expected it to be, and that all of you have got your business so happily performed, but cannot sympathize with you and your passion for Mr. Baker. For though I know people's imagination can perform wonders. I cannot conceive how even yours sister Ellen's and Elizabeth warm as they are can transform a dentist into a hero or be so much interested in him had he the form of an Apollo and every grace and beauty belonging to gods or men."

Brontë de Cárdenas

Can we talk like this again, please? I would love it. I mean, I think people look at you weird when you compare people to apologize, I think a dentist would appreciate that.

Kathryn Gehred 

I just love this hot dentist.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Do you think that that's what they're saying? Because that's what I kind of...

Kathryn Gehred 

I think they all fell in love with this dentist.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Oh, watch out Nicholas.

Kathryn Gehred 

And also, just again, from Monticello, you get a little bit familiar with some of these granddaughters Cornelia, kind of the like, kind of nerdy one, right? She's the one that like she can be a little grumpy in her letters. So I think it's hilarious that she's like, I do not understand how you are so so head over heels over this dentist.

Brontë de Cárdenas

Hey, I think we've just solved why Ellen was so cool, calm and collected. I think she was trying to be cool in front of the hot guy. I get it now. She's like, I'm badass. Look at me. I'm Ellen, Ellen Randolph

Kathryn Gehred 

My teeth are very brittle, but I'm very stoic. So yes, I wish we had more. I wish we could finish the letter and get whatever parting nuggets of wisdom that Ellen had for us, but this is an example of one of those letters that we just don't have the whole thing didn't not all of it survived.

Brontë de Cárdenas

I'm sure she would have loved to tell us more.

Kathryn Gehred 

I'll bet she had some really good lines in that next page. So, Brontë, do you have any sort of final thoughts on what we can learn from this letter? And take away with us?

Brontë de Cárdenas

Well, first of all, let's be grateful for even limited access to health care that we have now. And cheers to modern medicine, cheers to stoicism, and like badassness, even when it's for a hot guy.

Kathryn Gehred 

I wish my dentist wasn't Apollo. 

Brontë de Cárdenas

Yeah. And then, I think, just keep in mind, that image of these beautiful ladies and their beautiful dresses and their glittering gold teeth.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Brontë de Cárdenas

By the fireplace as Mr. Darcy talks about.

Kathryn Gehred

maybe their armpit hair? Who knows?

Brontë de Cárdenas

Oh, please, yes. I mean, beauty standards, all the all the all the changes in beauty standards, just goes to show that what everybody's telling you now was totally different in another time, they were telling you something else

Kathryn Gehred 

In 200 years, they're gonna be making so much fun of us for what?

Brontë de Cárdenas

Right again, it's like, it's fun to think about what we're doing now that stands out to other periods.

Kathryn Gehred

Absolutely.

Brontë de Cárdenas

They're gonna have a great laugh. It'll be great. I want to hear that a podcast.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you for coming in. And being such a fantastic guest and having such great insights into this letter. Bronte.

Brontë de Cárdenas

I love it. Thanks for having me.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much for being here. So with that, I will have the text of the letter, and some of my additional primary sources in the show notes. Thank you very much for listening. And as ever, I am your obedient and humble servant. Thanks.

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, everyone. It's Kathryn really quick, I just have a couple of updates at the end of the episode. First of all, huge thanks to everyone who has taken the time to rate and review the podcast on iTunes. Again, it's a silly algorithmic thing, but it's a huge help, and so far, we've had some lovely feedback. So thank you so much. Again, the budget for this podcast is exactly $0. So, that means our marketing budget is also $0. Every time you share the podcast with a friend or you do something like leave a rating on iTunes, it gives us a huge boost. So, I'm just so thankful for everyone who's taken the time to do that. One update to share this week is that our website is now live. So, feel free to check us out @humservt.com, humservent.com to find episodes, show notes, and it's a good way to contact me if you have ideas for future episodes, so feel free to check that website out. Also, if you haven't already, please tweet at me @twitter.com @ hunservt. Or, you can find us on Facebook @Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. Again, thank you so much for listening. I'll be back in two weeks with another great letter. Thanks, bye.