Episode 7 - Strange! Most Passing Strange!

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 7: "Strange! Most Passing Strange!"
Published on September 15, 2020

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, my name is Kathryn Gehred and this is Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant, a Women's History podcast where we feature the eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't always make it into the history books. I'm your host, Kathryn Gehred. Today I am very excited to be joined by my former colleague and my good friend, Allison Robinson. Allison Robinson is a doctoral candidate in American history and American material culture at the University of Chicago. Her work focuses on objects and how they produce, challenge and reimagine categories of identity throughout American history. Currently, Allison is researching and writing her dissertation and she'll join the Smithsonian in September as a Smithsonian Institution, pre Doctoral Fellow. So hi, Allison.

Allison Robinson

Hi, thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast. This is a real delight.

Kathryn Gehred 

This week. Again, once again, I have somebody who worked with me at Monticello, but I am switching it up and we are doing a Washington family letter this time to dig a little bit into the context. This is a letter that was written by Martha Washington's granddaughter Eleanor Park Custis later Eleanor Parke Custis Lewis, she's writing it to her very good friend, Elizabeth Bordley, who's later Elizabeth Bordley Gibson, and it's written in 1796. So, at this point, Eleanor is 17 years old. Her friend is 19 years old. So definitely teenage nonsense going on. They've been best friends since they were very young. At this point, 1796 George Washington is entering his last year of the presidency, but most of Eleanor's childhood has been in Philadelphia and New York being raised by her grandparents who happened to be the President and First Lady of the United States. So she has a very interesting upbringing. This letter was on March 30,  1796. Allison, you dug a little bit into the context of this. Could you talked about where she's writing from?

Allison Robinson

Oh, yes, of course. So she is writing from her older sister's house. She is visiting Martha and her brother-in-law Thomas shortly after the birth of their first child, also named Martha.

Kathryn Gehred

A lot of Martha's.

Allison Robinson

A lot of Martha's a lot of people with the exact same nickname which is makes history infinitely exciting.

Kathryn Gehred 

Eleanor and her brother George Washington Parke Custis are being raised by Martha Washington and George Washington. But they had two older siblings that actually stayed with their mother Martha's daughter in law.

Allison Robinson

Also named Eleanor.

Kathryn Gehred

Also named Eleanor, yet another Nellie, lots of Eleanor's and Nellies. But so that's Eleanor Calvert Custis, who remarried, and moved with her two children with two of her children in with her husband's family and then continued to have more children with her new husband. So, I think sometimes people talk about Martha and George Washington's family and they get hyper focused on the kids that were with the Washington's in Philadelphia. It's easy to forget that this was actually a big family that Eleanor has a lot of siblings and half siblings that she is visiting. Actually, they're riding back and forth. It's not like she was completely cut off from her mother and her family. She still has a relationship with them. But it's just interesting because she was raised by her grandmother. So just sort of a reminder of the context there. So this letter is while she's visiting her sister, and she's close by to where her mother and stepfather, and all those half siblings who are living so they're probably writing from Thomas Peters' house on K Street at this point, and she's writing back to Philadelphia to her good friend that she's apparently been missing while she's been visiting family. Does that sound about right? Anything you want to add to that context? Allison?

Allison Robinson

No sounds spot on.

Kathryn Gehred

And now the letter:

"Eleanor Park Custis to Elizabeth Bordley. Washington, February 7, 1796.

My Dear Elizabeth, it is now three weeks since I received your affectionate letter. I am really ashamed that I have not answered it before, but I will waive all excuses and tell you the real truth. I sat down to answer it a fortnight ago, and wrote almost one side when company coming in prevented me from finishing it. Two or three times since I've attempted answering your letter, but was prevented. This evening I was determined to devote to you. And as yet luckily no interruption. I shall just give you a sketch of my present situation. In Sister Peters room, Patty and the child asleep, Thomas reading and your humble servant writing to E. Bordley, for whom between ourselves I have a kind of friendship. Since I wrote last I am become an Aunt. Two or three inches taller upon the strength of it. As you may suppose. My dear sister has been very ill but is now, thank God, pretty well again. And my little niece, a very fat, handsome, good tempered, clever toad. Its nose and forehead very like it's Father's and its mouth and chin like Patty's. I think its eyes are very deep blue. But Sister Peter insists upon it that they are Hazel. It has a great deal of beautiful brown hair. Her name is is to be Martha Eliza Eleanor Peter, and to be called Eleanor. Martha is after Grandmama and Sister Peter, Eliza after Mama's mother, old Mrs. Peter grandma's sister, Mr. Peters eldest sister and my sister, and Eleanor after mama, and your most obedient, very humble servant, Eleanor Parke Custis. Thus, all the names of its nearest relations are taken in at once without giving offense to any. I approve very much of this way of getting quit of all the family names at once. You also approve of it no doubt, you must know that I am housekeeper, nurse, and a long train of etcetera's at present, Mama and sister Eliza went from this to hope park yesterday and left me here to take care of my sister, Peter, young niece and the house. I assure you, I am quite domesticated stay constantly at home, and I'm an excellent manager, nurse, and housekeeper. I have been out but twice since I came here, which is three weeks to one assembly which was a very agreeable one. And once to see Cousin Lear, who was sick and sent for me. I have a piece of information to give you which I think will surprise you a little. I shall be Miss Custis in two or three months as my sister Eliza is engaged to Mr. Law, whom I suppose you will have seen, and will be married in a short time. Strange, most passing strange quite unaccountable you will cry to strange my dear but nevertheless quite true Believe me. E Custis and E. Bordley spinsters and so likely to remain to the end of time. What say you to this? Agreed? Well be it so day tuit moncour. Uncle Edward Calvert is to be tied the first of March to a very amiable handsome girl of 18 a Miss Bisco of Nottingham. I have told you all the news therefore must now conclude with my love to your mama and papa, Patty and brother Peter desire to be remembered to you excuse and burn this very badly written scrall and believe me are sincere and most affectionate friend, Eleanor Parke Custis."

Okay, so, Alison, as sort of a quick summary, what is going on in this letter? What do you take from it?

Allison Robinson

So, the things that jumped out at me immediately to this letter are that one, it's been three weeks since she last wrote her friend, one can only assume that it aligns at least somewhat, with her arrival to visit her sister and brother in law.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah

Allison Robinson

Two, as perhaps all teenagers, it is important that she has not left the house, which we can chat about. But also that she's just so thrilled to be an Aunt and to be part of the naming process for this child. It seems like she is just so excited. Not only is her name included within the I mean, I also have four names, but included in the very long name with a child but that the child's nickname is also her name. Great. Personal win, and of course, the last elements, in addition to all of her duties as lady of the house, in this case, would be her sister Elisa's engagement. Yet, you and I know what's light salacious news at the time.

Kathryn Gehred 

For Stephanie gets very cute that she says she grew two or three inches. Yes, being an antique. As someone who has recently become an myself, I completely understand what she's talking about.

Allison Robinson

Oh, it's a great gig.

Kathryn Gehred

It's the best and interesting thing about this naming convention. As somebody who works quite a bit with the papers of this family. They are they do all have the same names. And, it even she's joking about it as she's writing listing all of the people who this person is named after. But then what's interesting is she really did get quit of all the family names. And then she was done with it. Her sister, Martha, all the rest of her daughters were given really inventive names. She has a daughter named Columbia, America, and my favorite, Britannia.

Allison Robinson

I mean, you don't want to accidentally offend any of your step, grandfather's acquaintances or political alliances by perhaps not naming your child after their nation.

Kathryn Gehred 

Very politically expedient. And it is instead of having with all these big families, instead of having to name all your kids, after all these different people, Just name one kid after all of the people and then do whatever you want.

Allison Robinson

Exactly. You got great grandmother's, grandmother's, mom, Aunts on both sides. You truly have every conceivable woman who couldn't be angry that she wasn't part of the naming process covered in one fell swoop. I have a lot of respect for it.

Kathryn Gehred 

That part's very cute. I do also I like that she talks about how she's only left the house twice in three weeks.

Allison Robinson

Yes. But I mean, you can imagine how for a teenager who's seventeen years old, who's on the cusp of coming out in society who is still going to balls on the Georgetown area but is perhaps interested in mingling with other people her own age is feeling the burdens of Aunthood if she has to run the household and be a nurse, and all of these things that we know were assisted Yes. But it's just it's a big shift when you're used to your freedom in Philadelphia as the first presidents step granddaughter to being trapped in the house.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, I imagined social life in Philadelphia was pretty exciting at this point.

Allison Robinson

I love that simply because it is an understatement for Eleanor Parke Custis, who had an education and social obligations that could surely boggle your mind, particularly when compared to literally any other person in this time period. She had such an exceptional life.

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, that's and I think it comes through in just even the way she wrote the letter. This is a very well written as much as she apologizes for the scrawl. It's definitely I mean, there's sort of short sentences, you can tell it's a teenager writing, but like very clear grammar, very formal, you can tell that she got a good education.

Allison Robinson

She had every opportunity, what one might expect of the granddaughter of George Washington. So, while she was in New York, she attended a school by Isabella Graham, which was an incredibly elite space. And, some of the skills that she was learning obviously include Spelling, Grammar, reading an English, which we can see so plainly in how welcome post this letter is, but she's also picking up skills in embroidery and arithmetic, geography, drawing, and my personal favorite "Japanning." For those who are interested, this is an incredibly involved process by which you're painting a piece of furniture, black and decorating it with all sorts of scenes inspired from East Asia, typically, it requires so many layers of lacquering and such careful detail work to execute it, it's very hard skill. So, the fact that she's learning all of these skills that one would need to run a household including math, language, reading, music and dancing, so you can entertain people but also painting both canvas and furniture. That's just that's incredible. And she's, she's young girl at this period.

Kathryn Gehred 

I'm so glad you're able to bring your material culture knowledge into this because I would have read that word and had no idea what that meant. Oh, yeah,

Allison Robinson

I would be more than happy to send pictures of Japan furniture to include in your show notes because it's, it's pretty cool.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. And she's just seventeen years old. So that's incredible. Yeah. So how would that compare though to her brother's education, her brother George Washington Parke Custis.

Allison Robinson

Oh, George Washington Park

Kathryn Gehred

Poor little George Washington Park Custis.

Allison Robinson

It is important to note that in Philadelphia, she still had an extremely elite education, but it was a little different. It was with private tutors that she shared with Elizabeth Bordley. You know, gotta get educated with your best friend when she's in town. But, these skills are more focused on painting, dancing, music, very accomplished. harpsichordist. "Washi"," I don't have the quote in front of me. But he has a great a great quote about how Nellie would cry and play and play and cry as their grandmother was forcing her to practice. But Washi, Washi had so many so many opportunities that were that were missed opportunities. His, his education was more traditional. It was the sciences, it was mathematics, reading, writing English language. He actually attended the Academy of Philadelphia, started by Benjamin Franklin in 1751. Was an academy as one might expect for boys to prepare them for college but a Washi didn't do so hot. He spent a lot of time attending elite schools and colleges ,and perhaps not fulfilling his full potential but that was just something that, it rubbed George Washington the wrong way a little bit.

Kathryn Gehred 

That trying to write a footnote about George Washington Park Custis' education was basically just a list of the schools he was kicked out of.

Allison Robinson

Yes, including President.

Kathryn Gehred 

And when he was a toddler, they call them "Tubs." sort of slightly mean nicknames for toddlers. I love that she calls her niece a clever toad.

Allison Robinson

Okay, she was smart.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's a clever little toad.

Allison Robinson

But yeah, their education is an interesting snapshot into the different opportunities that boys and girls had when you're looking at the elite Elite. Elite, white upper classes, women are being trained to be ladies, boys are being trained to be gentleman. And the skills that are required of both are they have some overlap in terms of reading and math in conversation and dancing. But overall, the emphasis on scholarly work versus hostessing and learning how to run a household are just quite different.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, and and what doesn't come through in this letter, because talking about running a household, as always, when you're talking about the gentry class, it's Eleanor might have been managing a household, but she's managing a staff of enslaved people. And they did not appear at all in this letter, which is interesting to note, because they would, there would have been the presence of slavery in the South and this type of household would have been everywhere, and yet also invisible when you look at some of these documents. So I wanted to get a little bit into that also, because she's saying multiple times how much work she's doing, right, how she is the housekeeper and nurse and all of these etceteras and all of that, but she wasn't really the one doing these things. She was managing these things.

Allison Robinson

Yeah. And we actually we know the name of the domestic and slave worker who was charged with raising all of the Peter children. Barbara Twine Cole, originally came from George Washington's plantation in Mount Vernon. I don't know precisely if it was upon the arrival of young Eleanor or if it was, you know, soon after, but there is a pretty clear lineage of the Twine family starting with Sal twine, who wasn't an enslaved man it oh, sorry, not Mount Vernon, Dog Run. And the lineage continues with Barbara twine colts daughter, also becoming a wedding present upon the marriage of Britannia, actually,

Kathryn Gehred 

And this is an aspect of slavery that I think people forget about sometimes is family members being given away as presents, like this, is there's people talk about family separations, after someone dies when somebody has sold something like that for money. But there is always this uncertainty, if you were somebody who was enslaved at this time period, that you could be working in somebody's household, make a family build your life. And you never knew even when people talk about, 'Well, this was a plantation where they didn't use corporal punishment.' Every single plantation would still be like, well, this child, my daughter got married. So to benefit my personal daughter, I'm going to separate you from your child and you might not never see that child again. Okay. All right. So I think we have we have hinted at it enough. And obviously, Eleanor herself, waits till the end of the letter, because she knows this is the juiciest tidbit. And she's going to blow Elizabeth's mind with this little fact. She shares the knowledge that her sister Elizabeth is engaged to a Mr. Law. And then she makes a big deal about how you'll probably be aware of Mr. Law and how strange the situation is. So, what was so strange about the situation, Nelson?

Allison Robinson

Okay, so Thomas Law, he was a tax collector for the East India Company for eighteen years, while a member of the East India Company, he entered a sexual relationship with a woman who was native to the area, and they had three sons from the process. So, he is an Englishman, who is now returning to England with three half white half Indian boys. So, he spends a couple of years in England, he also has a falling out with the East Indian Company because he disagrees with their stance on the war with France. So he thinks, Well, what's a better place than England to raise my three boys? I know, the great land of the United States of America. So, he picks them up. And he moves the two oldest, George and John to New York, I believe. Actually, no, I think it was Washington. I don't know. It was somewhere on the East Coast. Anyway, again, what is so unusual about this? The United States, certainly since the mid 1600s, is so not gonna say clearly defined, because that's not true. But he's working very, very hard at trying to understand and explain this black/white binary that has emerged in the colonies as a result of racialized slavery. Enlightenment thinkers are trying to explain how truly just an entire group of people could end up enslaved and Thomas Law, he's like gaming the system a little bit, because he has biracial children, but they're not black. And so America was a place where they could develop an identity that was that defied the it's weird to call it a racial order, because it's, it's not strict at all in this period. But, to find the way that people just like categorize those around him is how I would phrase it.

Kathryn Gehred 

There is one letter word law actually writes about talking about how he actually took his sons to America, because there at least, he seems to think there will be less racial prejudice, which seems incredible to me, but it might be as you're saying, as America is this sort of mixed race country with this bizarre racialized slavery system that people are more used to seeing brown people like out and about. But an Indian person might have a different type of prejudices against them. I

Allison Robinson

If they don't quite fit a binary, which is itself actively being constructed and discussed by people both on the ground, and Enlightenment thinkers on both sides of the pond, maybe they might have a chance to try to join elite society as white because they're not necessarily they don't neatly fit into the spectrum of like race in America. Speaking of the black/white binary in America, I actually recently taught a class at the University of Chicago, where my undergraduate students spent 11 weeks studying objects that embodied different categories of identity over two centuries in America. And I would encourage, heavily encourage all of your listeners to check out this digital history project because I am really delighted with how it turned out.

Kathryn Gehred

Oh, absolutely.

Allison Robinson

The name is quite long, but my students came up with it themselves. So I'm pretty pleased with that. It's called Narratives and Counter Narratives to Two Centuries of Race, Gender and Class in American Material Culture. And you can find it at voices.uchicago.edu/reproducingraceandgender. And I'm happy to share it with you and shownotes.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, I will put that in the show notes for sure.

Allison Robinson

So check that out.

Kathryn Gehred

Thank you so much. To sort of, I guess, setting the scene a little bit, we've got this new the capital of the country hasn't yet moved to Washington DC yet, but they're in the process of preparing for the move of the Capitol.

Allison Robinson

And it takes a minute.

Kathryn Gehred

It takes a minute, Thomas Law was trying to make money off of buying land in Washington City at this point, in preparation for the Capitol moving there. So he was seen a little bit as an opportunist, because he's this wealthy East India guy coming in buying up a lot of land. And he also arrives on the scene with two mixed race sons, no wife to speak of, and is very cagey whenever asked about those sons.

Allison Robinson

Oh, yes, he is super secretive about their mother. And I think it is it's worth stating explicitly that is East India Company money, while not a tremendous amount of money, it was what allowed him to do land speculation. So he was...

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Allison Robinson

Certainly better off than most.

Kathryn Gehred 

And you might think, Well, maybe he tried to keep this sort of hush hush, but we have letters from the time where this people are talking about this. There is some fantastic letters between John and Abigail Adams, where they really are just letting their feelings known about the situation. My personal favorite because it gives a little bit of an insight I think, to Martha Washington, John Adams writes to Abigail, he says that, he says Betsy Custis is to be married next month to Mr. Law, the English East Indian nabob, which is great. They're always describing people as nabobs the good lady, which is Martha, the good lady is gay as a girl and tells the story in a very humorous style. Mr. Law says he's only thirty-five years of age. And although the climate of India has given him an older look, yet his constitution is not impaired beyond his years.

Allison Robinson

Can we just talk about how bold it is? To move literally around the entire world? Insert yourself into the family of the first President of the United States, and then bring your son's into that family as well?

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes, I it's bold.

Allison Robinson

It is the boldest thing you could possibly do. I'm speechless is what I am. And it just, it just makes it all the more shocking that you know, this is 1796, only a year after Patsy marries Thomas Peter, whom everyone loves. And, Eliza announces she is engaged to a man that everyone is suspicious of. Patsy marries Thomas Peter, in this beautiful wedding on the first president's 30th wedding anniversary. It's a grand affair. Everyone's excited, then a year later. Who is this guy? But the fact that everyone knows who he is is clear in this letter, because Eleanor just refers to him as Mr. Law. You don't even need to add added information because he's such a known quantity.

Kathryn Gehred 

He has made himself known quantity.

Allison Robinson

That's incredible.

Kathryn Gehred

It's incredible. Even Elizabeth herself, Eliza is kind of known for being sort of a character. She has a portrait from Gilbert Stewart where she's got her arms crossed. She's looking at the artist with a sort of irritated expression, and it's just very different from what you'd usually see from women at this time. And there are a lot of descriptions of Eliza as being very outgoing, very managed. She wears men's clothing sometimes. Yes, she has a sort of famous for having this like big hat with feathers in it and wearing men's riding clothes and riding horses around early DC.

Allison Robinson

You know, she's got a strong personality.

Kathryn Gehred 

Strong personality. Married to another very bold man. I just there's such an interesting early Washington City couple.

Allison Robinson

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And people were equally gossipy, upon their separation.

Kathryn Gehred 

It is not a happy marriage. It does not end well. For us. So jumping into the future a little bit. This is an early divorce or marital separation in DC society.

Allison Robinson

In 1811 she did have a wasn't alimony early alimony. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, it's and she and Thomas have one daughter also named Eliza that she named her daughter after herself.

Allison Robinson

Maybe Eliza. I don't know that much about her. But I can only imagine she was also feisty.

Kathryn Gehred 

If you're interested in the sort of infamous Thomas Law and his family and what happened to them, please do look into it. So there's some really interesting articles that have been published recently about his family and about the young, half Indian young men growing up, and they did end up getting a good education.

Allison Robinson

One of them went to Princeton.

Kathryn Gehred

Princeton. One of his sons went to Princeton.

Allison Robinson

It doesn't appear in the exchange between John and Abigail Adams, but they only mentioned two sons. But we know that there were actually three.

Kathryn Gehred 

And this third son appears shortly before the divorce happens.

Allison Robinson

He arrived in America in 1794 with two sons everyone's talking about this like very curious man with a very mysterious path ,with two sons but also like money. And then one decade later, eight years into his marriage to young Eliza that just saying was also the year that Edmund then four now fourteen, comes from England to America. I don't know why. But if your listeners know wine, I would love I would love to find out basically your timing, the timing.

Kathryn Gehred 

If we can turn this into a true crime podcast or a moment someone knows something, please send us what research that you have because we have we don't know we would love to find out before

Allison Robinson

Before we move on from talking about marriage. We must talk about Nellie be moaning playfully her spinster state.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes at 17 years old. So...

Allison Robinson

Of course.

Kathryn Gehred

Do you think she's superboy crazy and is just making a joke about being a spinster or what what's your take?

Allison Robinson

My take is that she's maybe she's curious about boys of this period. Certainly. She's expressed not being super taken with the one she's met so far. But, I suspect that's more of just like a playful ribbing each other her friend is an only child she's also a married, she's actually marry much later after Nellie would Nellie will get married only three years after writing this letter. So you know, I don't know what it was about, you know, George Washington's nephew.

Kathryn Gehred 

Wait, actually, I do know one thing about their courtship, which is that it happened to after Washington's retirement and he literally hired his he's like, send me a nephew. He's like, I need somebody to come to Mount Vernon because I want to go to bed. And these young people keep staying up and talking. So, I need somebody here to hang out with the young people so I can go to sleep.

Allison Robinson

I gotta believe that he said that up.

Kathryn Gehred

George Washington little Cupid right there.

Allison Robinson

Hey, man, you know, whatever the motivation, maybe it's sleep deprivation, but I have to believe but yes, so at seventeen she's a she's a spinster for sure. But, I just I take this letter as one that's more you know, joking ribbing than seriousness. Simply because she uses the phrase. So, likely to remain at the end of time would say to you this, agreed.

Kathryn Gehred 

Pinky promise. Let's never get married.

Allison Robinson

Exactly ride or die is what it is. That's within an era where actually her older sister Martha did get married at seventeen, you can understand how maybe seeing her sister getting married, heaven forbid nineteen that those two years those are make or break. You don't know what's gonna happen. You'll get married. Maybe you'll stay a spinster.

Kathryn Gehred 

And you could marry the perfect Mr. Peter or the terrible Mr. Law because all sorts of dangers that she could fall into. I do want to point out this this sort of it this is a I think it is a telling quote from Abigail Adams. She writes in response to John Adams when they're talking about Thomas Law, she says, I know law, he will never see forty-five again unless he lives to ninety-nine, sick burn Abigail. But then she goes, he will do for a "Virginia girl who would stand no chance were black or so plenty and manners so licentious of marrying one of her own statesmen without some progeny." So let's dig into what that means. Because I think as a tour guide, a lot of times I would talk about how common mixed race children within slaved women were particularly at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello, obviously, that comes up quite a bit. But this is something that was everywhere, but it's not usually written about or stated in such an explicit way as Abigail Adams is doing right here. So she's saying that Elizabeth is going to have a hard time finding another southern man that doesn't already have some mixed race kids. So, it's maybe not a deal breaker for her because everybody in Virginia is just living with us and dealing with this constantly, just not talking about it in letters.

Allison Robinson

Oh, yeah. Interracial sex is everywhere. Interracial marriages a little.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yep, exactly. So and that is another thing that you become more aware of, as you dig into all of the details of these historic letters. And not necessarily just picking and choosing the quotes that you pull out of them. You see more of this evidence sort of sprinkled in, but again, if you're reading a lot of white people's letters, you're not going to ever hear much about it, because there really was such a culture of silence around something that everybody could see before their eyes.

Allison Robinson

Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Yes. We didn't mention I think it showed up in bits and pieces, but we didn't mention the tremendous age gap between these two people. Are Thomas law as a as our delightful hostess has already pointed out was thirty-five. At the time, Elizabeth Parke Custis, was on the cusp of her twentieth, and her step grandfather, George Washington, not real psyched about it.

Kathryn Gehred 

I believe that that is one of George Washington's only pieces of advice is don't marry somebody much older than you. And Elizabeth was like,

Allison Robinson

Hold my beer.

Kathryn Gehred 

Like one month later, marrying this guy.

Allison Robinson

Right?! Scandalous at scandalous.

Kathryn Gehred 

Her saying now that I will be Miss Custis because being one of three daughters. Whoever was the eldest would be Miss Custis, and the younger two would be their full names and depending on who was married. So now, finally, it's Nellie's time to be Miss Custis and not Miss Eleanor Custis.

Allison Robinson

Wah, wah. I don't know. For me, it's kind of like a sad trombone.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's not necessarily an honor to be Miss Custis. She's now spinster, Miss Custis.

Allison Robinson

And, you know, with the boys, which is up their game, maybe it wasn't a problem. But, I think that makes it all the more important that in this letter, she's mentioning that she didn't leave the house more than two times in about three weeks, because she's seeing her sister's getting married. She is remarking on you know, the quality of these gentlemen wink, wink, nudge, nudge. But, she's also like, not super taken with the whole running a household.

Kathryn Gehred 

She's, she wants to have fun. Once she's done crying into that harpsichord she wants to go hang out. So I think that actually leads us pretty nicely into sort of a summary of the letter. So is there anything that about this particular letter that strikes you as relatable? Heike, relatable?

Allison Robinson

Oh, sure. I mean, I would say, when there is hot gossip, you need to tell your best friend immediately, the biggest takeaway for me personally, sure, they didn't have texting. And sure, she did mention that she waited three weeks to write that letter, but she saved the hottest gossip, for last. Oh, also, if you if you are anything like me and have a comically long name. It is pretty clear that families have been naming their children after each other for years, forever. And when in doubt, just take Eleanor's advice and take everyone's names and name a child that, but get it out of the way. I'd also just add that, you know, people are always gonna comment on who you date.

Kathryn Gehred 

Gossip has really not changed is that that's a lesson that I've learned from this podcast. And I guess as far as differences, I will say definitely being 17 and having all of your family members married I would say that's something that probably I'm thankful that that has changed.

Allison Robinson

Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Me too. Also, I mean, just she's she's so exceptional. She's such a exception in American history. The beyond these, you know, very basic relatable things. No one else is like her period.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah. If you're if you're looking for a letter that sums up what early American women are like, this is probably not the place to go.

Allison Robinson

This is not it. This is absolutely not it. So one of the advantages of being able to read these letters of women who have the privilege and the educational background to actually express themselves is that we also get a really great sense of who they were as people.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Allison Robinson

Where Nellie is, she's pretty spunky. She's got a like a light hearted sense of humor. You can see how much she really just treasures, her family and her friends that she's just so proud to be an aunt. And she's so proud that her name is attached to this child. This is like a huge moment in life. Yeah, you can also tell that she's, she has received some training and household management, even if she doesn't like it. But, uh, yeah, we just have a good sense of her likes and dislikes. We have a good sense of her interests, the people that she's has in her social circle, and her thoughts on all those things. And she, she has a lot of them.

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, Allison, this was a delightful conversation. I had a wonderful time talking about this with you. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast.

Allison Robinson

Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me. I had an absolute blast.

Kathryn Gehred 

To my listeners. Thank you very much for tuning in to another episode. And as always, I am as ever your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.