Episode 8 - An Indifferent Game Of Chess

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 8: "An Indifferent Game Of Chess"
Published on September 29, 2020

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't always make it into the history books. I'm your host, Kathryn Gehred. I'm very excited to be joined by a good friend of mine and a former colleague, Kate Johnson.

Kate Johnson

Hello.

Kathryn Gehred

Kate is an Archival Assistant at the University of Northern Colorado and has worked in museums and cultural institutions for over ten years. She's also worked at several Women's History focused archives and museums in the Chicago area. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do?

Kate Johnson

Yeah, I'd be glad to sort of the main aspects to my job as an archival assistant. Our processing is a big one, which is where we're organizing the collections of historical materials so that researchers can, can hopefully find what they're looking for and perhaps find what they didn't know they were looking for, helping patrons with research, and then a part of my job is also creating exhibits based on our archival material and developing programming to help bring students and members of the university community in. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Cool! Very happy to have you with us. I decided since Kate and I used to work together at Monticello to pull out another Monticello relevant document. So, this is a another letter from one of Thomas Jefferson's granddaughters, Ellen Wayles Randolph. This letter is from 1821 to her mother, Martha Jefferson Randolph, she's writing from Washington City, so Washington DC, but they call it Washington City at that time. So, for a little bit of context, 1821 Thomas Jefferson is still alive at this point. He's retired at Monticello, he doesn't die till 1826. Ellen herself is 25 years old at this point, and she's visiting Washington for the social season. I tried to find out exactly what prompted this visit, I found there was actually a little bit of drama, about her departure from Monticello. She sort of left on an impulse. We have a letter that she writes November 19. And she says, "I've been continually uneasy about the state in which I left you my dearest mother." So, I tried to figure out what was going on there. She and her sister's fiance, Nicholas Trist, and his brother Hore Browse Trist, who they call Browse left Monticello in November, it seems like somebody in the family was sick. And it also seems because I found a letter from Virginia that Virginia wrote to her fiance Nicholas, where she apologizes for her temper, and how she was ashamed that that was the last impression of her that she had left with him. I suspect here. I suspect that Virginia was a little bit annoyed that Ellen was going on this trip, and she was not. It's also really cute the letter that Ellen writes, because she talks about she's in this really long carriage ride with Nicholas and his brother. And I guess they both fell asleep on her shoulders.

Kate Johnson

So I'll just setting up like a Rom Com or a Jane Austen novel,

Kathryn Gehred 

Right? Is it this? Yes. So Ellen is visiting Washington for the social season. There's going to be a lot of parties, a lot of events, but it doesn't seem like things have really kicked off yet. And she is visiting with her cousin are with her aunt Mary Randolph. So this is her father's sister, Mary Randolph. She is the author of a Virginia Housewife Cookbook, which is a little bit famous. It's the sort of thing that they like, get recipes from Colonial Williamsburg from and she used to run a tavern, Mary Randolph, but her husband was a Federalist. Not a Democratic Republican, which obviously is Thomas Jefferson's party. And Ellen, as much as she would say, she would not talk about politics very much was definitely a Democratic Republican, and I think that a little bit of the tensions of the political situation at the time comes through in Ellen's letter. Would you agree with that, Kate?

Kate Johnson

Yes, yeah.

Kathryn Gehd

Also, Ellen does write a letter to her grandfather, Thomas Jefferson, with some political news. So, that letter is dated two days earlier from this, so this is right in the thick of what's going on at this time. And she actually does write political news. And she mentioned General Jackson, who, at this point, so that's Andrew Jackson. He was governor of the Floridas, and he was in the newspapers, because he was in a power dispute with Judge, Oh, I don't know how to say this name either. But it's a "Elijah", "allegiancefrominteam." And this is a very significant historical moment, because the issue is that Andrew Jackson is fighting over the powers that he has as a governor in Florida, and he's setting himself directly opposite President Monroe and Secretary of State John Quincy Adams. So, I wanted to mention that a little bit just to give an idea of the political situation is going on and what everybody's talking about in Washington City at this time.

Kate Johnson

Did you mention the that she's that she's single? And sort of,

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh, thank you. Yep. Good point. So Ellen being 25 years old, unmarried, and so part of the reason that she would be in Washington City at the social season, is to try to find a husband and also men in Washington might also be looking for spouses, just to try to get good political job.

Kate Johnson

She's kind of a prime target.

Kathryn Gehred

There are a lot of office seekers there that are trying to marry into a family like Thomas Jefferson's, and which is exactly the kind of nepotism that Andrew Jackson was so angry about. And, you can really see it in action and its like.

Kate Johnson

Exactly.

Kathryn Gehred

Okay. Okay. So that I think should be enough context. And so I will get started with the letter. So this is Ellen Wayles Randolph to Martha Jefferson, Randolph, Washington, December 14 1821.

"I have always observed my dearest Mother, that your letters have a secret charm, a spell, by which vapours and blue devils are speedily expelled; in whatever mood I may be, to hear from you is like a dose of æther to an hysterical patient; I am at once animated revived, & things & persons appear in a more amiable point of view, my prospects brighten, and my hopes prevail—yesterday I felt rather dismally, the day was gloomy and cold, a mingled fall of snow and rain, kept every one within doors—Aunt R— was out of spirits & of course a little out of humour, for you know that in the Randolph family there is no separating these states of mind; she had been very unwell a few days before, and the first symptoms of a relapse shewed themselves in the unusual asperity with which she spoke of men and things, she was evidently feverish and threatened with serious indisposition, all these things combined as you may suppose could produce no very exhilirating effect on me, a poor prisoner, particularly as I was debarred from all employment, sewing work I could not see to do except at the cold window, and reading or writing would have shewn a want of relish for Aunt R——s society & conversation, just in this state of affairs your dear welcome letter arrived and (sorry as I was to hear of the mischief I have done in a certain quarter,) it gave me a sensation of gladness, of joy, which it is not very often my lot to experience; it invigorated me so completely that when Aunt R— become really ill and obliged to send for a physician I still felt light & happy in comparison to what I had done a few hours before—she is confined to her bed to day and I am writing from her sick room. her complaint was a violent pain in the side accompanied by fever, and I should have been considerably alarmed if I had not felt a conviction that it was an affection of the stomach, and I have been confirmed in this belief by the nature of Dr Huntt’s prescription, and by the sang froid with which he behaves—she is however certainly very sick and I am not without uneasiness on her account, she herself seems convinced that she is in great danger, I have tried to soothe & reason her out of this idea, but there is no reasoning with nerves, and she resents as an injury any attempt to bring about a more comfortable state of feeling—so I am fain to let her repeat that she is sure she shall die, although I am by no means impressed with the idea that she is in danger of any thing more than suffering and discomfort, for some time to come."

Kate Johnson

Oh, she's so dramatic. And I love to how she kind of makes fun of the Randolph side of the family where she's like, was out of spirits. And of course, "a little out of humor for you know, that in the Randolph family there's no separating the states of mind."

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh, I can't back this up. But I think there are some letters where people in the family describe if you're having a bad day is delivered of having a "Case of the Randolph's."

Kate Johnson

Yeah, that I believe that

Kathryn Gehred 

So it's nice to see it sort of an action I like she's she's didn't want to show a want of relish for and our society and conversation, but I'm getting the impression that she might not have actually enjoyed it very much.

Kate Johnson

She doesn't think very much of her illness. Yes. The thing I like about that, though, and we'll, we'll see more more of this in the letter is that it's so obvious she has such a close relationship with her mother.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Kate Johnson

Like they are very clearly there's trust. She doesn't have any qualms about telling her mother exactly what she thinks and you know, or looking bad or being impolite sort of in front of her mother, and I kind of I kind of love that they have that relationship.

Kathryn Gehred 

I did enjoy what she says "some secret charmers spell by which vapors and blue devils are speedily expelled, and to hear from you as like a dose of ether to an hysterical patient."

Kate Johnson

Oh my goodness. And first time I read this, I busted up laughing after the hysterical patient line.

Kathryn Gehred 

I did look this up because I listened to that to name drop a podcast and then a podcast but a medical history podcast called Soft Bones. And their episode on ether is really good. And I was like, I didn't think they used either medical yet, but this really seems to imply that it is a dose of ether to an hysterical patient. But it wasn't used as a like a numbing agent yet that wasn't until like the 1840s, but so at this point, it's still just something that people are either taking for fun or like something to calm somebody down.

Kate Johnson

Which, yeah, that I kind of poke fun of her because she talks about you know, if you're a sterile patient, like it's a calming down, but in her very next sentence. She's like, once animated, and it's like, well, it's the exact opposite effect of that particular drug but it is fine Ellen, carry on.

Kathryn Gehred 

You're mixing your metaphors here Ellen. And, I did want to point out, I was able to look up who Dr. Hunt was. He was a rather big deal physician at this time. His name is Henry Hunt MD, I can give you his exact address, which none of you care about. He was living in Washington, DC directory at the east side of 14 West between Pennsylvania Avenue and F. And he was a health officer of the city. So, she's not just calling a doctor, she's calling a pretty significant doctor.

Kate Johnson

Which makes sense considering their family status. 

Kathryn Gehred 

But yeah, that's who she would get into the next bit.

"I expected you would all be somewhat curious on the subject of my “unknown lover” and intended to keep you for a while in suspense, I knew that when once a disclosure was made the bubble would burst. Parturiunt montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

This is some Latin that she threw in there. And can you say what the sentence means in English.

Kate Johnson

I would, I would be glad to it translates to: "mountains will be in labor and an absurd mouse will be born."

Kathryn Gehred 

Mountains will be in labor and an absurd mouse will be born. Okay.

"This sighing Stephon who can do nothing but make indifferent love and play a still more indifferent game of chess, and who two days after the adventure of the song and just before leaving Washington, came to a formal declaration of his passion, at the same time acknowledging he should find some difficulty in maintaining a wife, [. . .] and postponing the positive demand of my hand until his return from South America, where he is going post haste to make a fortune in less time than ever a fortune was made by man, who has no wish but to lay his bars of silver and ingots of gold, his precious stones & pearls of price, [. . .] and all the precious commodities with which he proposes to return full laden, at the feet of the most charming of the sex if in the mean time some happier man steps not in with a fortune ready made, and with pen of gold writes not his own name upon this fair blank paper, which it would seem has a sort of repellant quality forbidding the approach of any metal less precious. this man, I say (, after a parenthesis as long if not quite as eloquent as any of Cicero’s or Aunt C—s) is no less and no greater a person than a certain William Taylor of Norfolk, brother to that Gen Taylor of long-winded memory who married the elder sister of Elizabeth Lindsay, & was formerly in the habit of visiting us at Monticello; a greater bore even than his brother—this explains the W.T. upon the seal which the officious zeal of my knight-errant clapped on my letter to Cornelia—I know nothing earthly of this man, he may have been a shoe-black or a black-leg for ought I am aware of, and I therefore consider his addresses as highly impertinent & derogatory to my dignity—however he is upon the most intimate footing in Col. Freeman’s family who was for a long time the officer in command on the Norfolk station and should therefore know 'who is who.'"

Okay, what do you think that?

Kate Johnson

Gold, all of it.

Kathryn Gehred

We have our first proposal description and boy it she is not nice.

Kate Johnson

She does not think much of Mr. Taylor.

Kathryn Gehred 

We don't have the letter she mentioned that there was a letter with a seal to Cornelia. So I imagined that might have been something that caused a little bit of hubbub at the household.

Kate Johnson

Yes, I'm so I don't know if impressed is the right word by his boldness. It'd be like, Oh, I see. You're reading a letter home? Shall I seal it for you with my seal? How gracious of you? That's not weird at all. We'd like stamp your claim man and quite literally,

Kathryn Gehred 

And I can only imagine what they thought getting this letter that's supposed to be from Ellen with somebody else's seal on it.

Kate Johnson

Seal on it. What has she been getting up to?

Kathryn Gehred 

So, I imagined that is what her Latin quote was talking about, or she saying, mountains or whatever, only ridiculous mouse where she's saying it looks like something like a big deal happened. But it's actually just ridiculous.

Kate Johnson

It's sort of a building up of expectation, and then the reality not really meeting that.

Kathryn Gehred 

So I looked up the poor unfortunate William Taylor, who did not get a very complimentary introduction from Ellen. He appears to be a distant cousin of James Madison. So he is part of this sort of Virginia Gentry class, but doesn't seem like he's made too much of a dent in the history books, at least yet, but I know for sure it's this guy because he was appointed to be the US console to Veracruz and Alvarado in Mexico in 1823. So, he must have just gotten this appointments. And that's given him a little bit of perhaps the motivation to try to also sort of stake his claim in the Jefferson family a little bit proposing to Ellen not realizing that she just thinks he's ridiculous. She's sort of making fun of the fact that he doesn't think he has enough money to be with her yet. But then she also very much just like he doesn't have enough money.

Kate Johnson

Yeah, she's, it's funny. She does that a number of times in this letter, I find the insight into Ellen's personality in this letter, a lot of fun. The other point here, I like that one of the things she mocks him for is his indifferent game of chess. She's like, I don't know who this guy is. I don't know what he does. I think he's impertinent. Also, he plays chess poorly.

Kathryn Gehred 

An indifferent game of chess, and he makes indifferent love to that is just brutal.

Kate Johnson

Going through this letter. You know, it was fun to kind of think back on on my Monticello knowledge, which I don't get to use as much anymore. And, but what I do remember Ellen, she was very smart. And she knew it.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Kate Johnson

And I feel like she enjoyed sort of thinking of herself as the smartest person in the room. A lot of times, which of course is a trait, I would say she she picked up at home. You know, and she's, I think she kind of thrived in some of the intellectual atmosphere that like her grandfather cultivated Yeah, even though you know, of course, as a woman, it's, there's some barriers there. And yeah, she's not truly allowed to be a full participant in some ways, but she writes well, she writes very witty, she writes very, to the point.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Kate Johnson

She does sort of have this Elizabeth Bennett quality in this sort of like laughing at the world a little bit. 

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Kate Johnson

Even though like you say some of it, she like actually feels.

Kathryn Gehred 

She's just like such a Southern belle. Alright, so that's the romance portion. Now we're gonna get back into the letter.

And this is just sort of the social news.

"I do not think Susan Ervin is quite as fond of me as she appeared before, but this may be fancy & the whole family pay me the most friendly attentions—Col. Freeman to be sure is as rough and rugged as a russian bear, but he seems fond of me, says I am the best little girl in the world, just as good as it is in the nature of woman to be, which to be sure is always a doubtful kind of goodness, that I have a pair of the sweetiest sauciest little eyes he ever saw, and he makes no manner of doubt I have done a great deal of mischief with them, and am right sorry not to have done still more—Nicholas told me I should find him a rough old soldier, but true to the core he speaks often of grandpapa and always with an acknowledgement of obligation, he says Mr Jefferson was the cause of his being promoted & kept in. I know not to what he alludes particularly—Mrs Freeman says she was of a Quaker family in Philadelphia, that at the time of the yellow fever, Grandpapa inhabited a country house on the banks of the Schuylkil or Delaware I forget which that he returned to Virginia and allowed her father or uncle (I forget again) in his absence to inhabit the house to which the family removed from the infected air of the city; and this she remembers with gratitude

I have been miserably disappointed in the Vails, and yet I know not why, the girls are certainly accomplished, and so are the young men, & they all sing and play and dance and draw wonderfully well, and every body says they are charming, and I echo, charming and yet there are no people whose society gives me less pleasure, whether it is, that as they have dwelt among the gay and frivolous and learned to speak english from these associates, they have acquired only the common-place language of the fashionables & are unable to express any other than common-place ideas, or whether with all their accomplishments, they are deficient in the charm of mind, I can not tell. to me also, they appear all shew and outside work, and so slippery withal that there is no laying hold of them; they all appear cast in the same mould both as to mind and manners and whether this resemblance is so great as to decieve with regard to their persons, or does really exist in matter as well as manner, but I have never yet learned to distinguish the girls from one another, and I know the men from the women only by the difference of pantaloon and petticoat. Clementina is younger & fresher in person—, and Aaron of a sharper & more satirical temper than the others, and I have been able to discover no other variety—when I add to this that the[y] [. . .] give me the proof of merit, you will readily imagine that [. . .] generally dispense with their society.

I have heard nothing of the Trists since the letter which Nicholas wrote, the day after his arrival at Wheeling, except through the Vails, Lieutenant Vail left Washington two days after N. & B. whom he joined at Wheeling, and he wrote to his friends here, that they were to leave that place together in a short time after the date of his letter, which was Nov. 29th"

So, that was sort of the social news. Gosh, she's mean to the Vails.

Kate Johnson

Yeah. Wow.

Kathryn Gehred

I wasn't able to identify every single Vail. Apparently neither was Ellen.

Kate Johnson

No kidding. It was a family.

Kathryn Gehred

So this was the family of Aaron Vale, the US commercial agent at Lorient France. He died in 1815. So his family which had been born and raised in Paris, all returned to Washington at this point, so they were sort of new in the area.

Kate Johnson

That makes sense because I was wondering where they were from if she's saying they learned their English from gay frivolous people. She's just really cost them like charming airheads.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, and I don't. Again, I can't tell you if that's fair. It seems Aaron Vail Jr, the son, who she mentioned

Kate Johnson

Possibly has, he has more satirical temper than the others. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Ah, okay. So, he actually ended up being a diplomat just like his father, and he in the 1830s become Secretary of Legation in London. So he has a long, prosperous career. But most of the time when you're trying to look up the Vails, it's actually through mentions that Ellen's making of them. So I was looking at the Dolly Madison Papers and when it's identifying the Vails, they mentioned that Clementina, who's actually named Clementine, she ends up becoming a nun, a few years later. It identifies her and it's always says, oh, all of the Vails who are really good friends with Ellen. Like they're identified by their relationship with Ellen as being such good friends Ellen, specifically.

Kate Johnson

Oh, gosh, that's so sad.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes. And every mention I've read has had included a quote from Ellen about the Vails, but like all these positive quotes, that she's writing to other people who are not their mother, so it's so funny, because apparently they're BFFs

Kate Johnson

This must be early on in their friendship, perhaps they grow on her other I kind of always I kind of have this sense that almost like they're the exchange students. She's like befriending them because she thinks it's the right thing to do, but she doesn't actually understand them. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, that completely makes that she can't tell any of them apart.

Kate Johnson

That she can't tell anymore.

Kathryn Gehred

Just the difference of Pantaleon and petticoat, dang, Ellen.

Kate Johnson

But again, so well written, concise and witty burn, 

Kathryn Gehred 

She should have been like an insult comic time.

Kate Johnson

For real!

Kathryn Gehred

Other people mentioned, Nope. So Susan Ervin, she's mentioned in passing, I wasn't able to look up Susan Ervin. Colonel Freeman, I'm pretty sure is Constant Freeman. He was a former Revolutionary War soldier. It seems like from the way that they're writing about him that this is the same guy. I was trying to look up the identity of his wife, Mrs. Freeman. And I just have to tell you, this is one of those things I ran into. There were barely two constant Freeman's who both got married within three years in Boston, because there's so many wedding records for Constant Freeman. So, he's either marrying like a ton of different women who are just like either passing away and he's marrying another one within like a year span, or there's two Constant Freeman's so I just decided I'm not even going to try to identify which which one she is. However, I did find another hint. If one of you genealogists out there wants to dig up and solve this mystery. She says she's of a Quaker family and Philadelphia. And she also says that Thomas Jefferson, let her Father or Uncle so again, more mystery, rent, or stay in his house after he left Philadelphia because of the yellow fever. And, I was able to find the letter from Thomas Jefferson offering the house to a man named Moses Cox, her father or Uncle Moses Cox might give you a maiden name that you'd be able to identify this person. So that's the Freeman's. Oh, and what's your impression of Colonel Freeman from Ellen's description?

Kate Johnson

Oh my gosh, "the sweetest sauciest little eyes." Oh, whoa, man.

Kathryn Gehred 

Chill out. Oh, man.

Kate Johnson

It's, it's funny reading this. It was like I could just imagine, imagine him as being one of those older gentlemen who thinks of themselves as harmless and says these kinds of things, and just makes everyone uncomfortable, but they're just oblivious to it.

Kathryn Gehred 

I guess she is breaking hearts with those eyes.

Kate Johnson

That's true. I guess she's causing mischief with her. I just that phrase that "the sweetiest, sauciest live."

Kathryn Gehred 

And I double checked and double check that it was "sweetiest." And it is. So that's why I read it that way.

Kate Johnson

And I'm sure she wrote it as it was spoken to her. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, totally. And the other thing that's fun about reading women's letters like this specifically, is Colonel Freeman shows up in other historical documents, and he's described in things and you'll just see things like he was a career soldier, you hear these like very professional descriptions of people. And then you read about him from a woman's perspective. 

Kate Johnson

And it's social context.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah, like in a social context. And it's like that old creep. I love when I come across somebody in like an encyclopedia entry that I've only read about these women's letters and has like, oh, that weirdo.

Kate Johnson

Right? It is and it's such a free kind of a thing, I guess, in a way, because I guess what I mean is like, you read about these people in the history books or whatever, and they're like these towering figures, right? Yeah, read this and you're like, oh my gosh, they were socially awkward. You know, or just like, you know, they were they were as human as anybody.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Kate Johnson

Right.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Kate Johnson

It's their personality. Yeah. Not just the resume.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, so here's the next the next section.

"I have never yet heard the price of my bonnet & coat, I enclosed a 50$ note to Cary Anne, and begged that she would let me know how much more would be necessary, as she was to have an evening dress made for me besides, but I have not heard a word from her since, and feel quite uneasy about the fate of my note, the receipt of which has not as yet been acknowledged. I am also afraid, I shall not have my dress in time for Mde de N—s great party next Wednesday, which will be my first appearance in public, since that English Brute excluded me from his filthy den.—my pelisse is very pretty indeed but I am afraid exceedingly delicate, it both spots & rubs rough, and I fear can only be used on great occasions—the bonnet is pure white & will stand no service, although it is very tasty & french-looking, but these things are between ourselves. the coat has been very much admired; a young pert clerk son to post master Munroe (the Whitcroft breed) said to a gay flashy grocer’s wife, “there goes Col. Freeman’s carriage, and a very handsome lady in it; who is she?” I do not know who she is, returned the grocer’s lady, “but I know she has got on the prettiest pelisse that ever I saw” the woman is absolutely void of sentiment, said the clerk with a languishing air, “to think of her talking about the pelisse.” but better judges than Mde l’Epiciere have been of the same opinion touching the [. . .] comparitive merits of my person and of my pelisse coat—Dec. 15th—I had written thus far last night when I was interrupted by a visit from my friend Mr Dix who would really be a charming fellow were it not for his extreme absence of mind and expression of profound melancholy—Aunt R— is decidedly better, past a very good night and admits that she will probably recover, particularly as she is preparing to rise after having taken her breakfast—I received another invitation from Mrs Senator Brown to a party at her house on monday—I mentioned in writing to Jane, my despair at not having had it in my power to accept the first—my spirits rise at the thought of slipping my prison bars, and once more making my entrèe into the fashionable world—adieu my dearest best loved mother, so long as I think you will pardon my egotism, I have no pleasure so great as writing to you—a great deal of love to all the family, a thousand kisses for Sep. & Geordie & for yourself the assurance of my devoted attachment."

End. So, she gets a little bit she's describing something about a grocer's wife and a pelisse. So, could you in modern language, Kate, tell me what's going on there.

Kate Johnson

So, she's talking about her jacket, her coat, the pelisse is a type of coat. So she's, she's describing the quality of it, and that she's not as happy with the quality but that it's very pretty. And then, if I understand this correctly, she's describing that a conversation of two people on the street, one of them being a grocer's wife that they're commenting on on her in the carriage, which, which makes sense, you know, again, being the sort of social setting that they're, you know, everyone's paying attention to who's in town and everything. So she, she's sort of like making fun of them, commenting on her pretty jacket, but I think it's quite hilarious that while she she may be kind of poking fun at them. She does recount their conversation like word for word.

Kathryn Gehred 

And I have to I'm embarrassed to admit that as I was going through and doing my normal trying to identify the people named in the letter, I did try to find a Madame Fusilli. I thought that was your name. It basically translate to Madame le Grocery. Ellen's just being a little mean again.

Kate Johnson

Yeah. I was like, What's the big deal? Ellen, what do you care? A groceries wife likes your coat. She's both disdains that someone on the street would like have not of her class, I guess. Wouldn't be like, it's a beautiful coat or like, it's like, what would she know of the quality of my coat? But notice how she thought it was good.

Kathryn Gehred 

It's sort of like the coats prettier than the lady. I think.

Kate Johnson

Oh, I see. I see what you're saying. Okay, okay. Like because I was like, I'm not sure why she's so annoyed.

Kathryn Gehred 

I think that's how she took it because it might almost be a little bit of self deprecation at the end where she says "better judges may have had the same opinion on the comparative merits of my person and of my coat." Yes, she's more coat than woman. I did want to go into a little bit about the English brute and Madam de Neuville, So Madame de Neuville was a very much like the Washington socialite at this time. She and her husband were royalists, who were exiled from France, and they came to the United States and held like the parties that you want it to be at. But if you try to find out more about her herself, she was actually it seems like Madame de Neuville wasn't really into that whole social life thing. She just sort of did it because she had to. Yes, but you can just feel Ellen's mood getting better at the end of the letter when she has more events to look forward to.

Kate Johnson

Yes.

Kathryn Gehred

And it's she's happy to have been invited to this one. Because I was trying to figure out who the heck the English Brut was to exclude her from his filthy den. This is Stratford Canning, the envoy extraordinary and minister plenipotentiary to the United States from England, from 1819 to 1823. So, I really tried to find the specific event where he snubbed Ellen, I can't find it. But later, Ellen writes to Jefferson, where she says he actually has good manners. He, he must have just, like made a mistake earlier on. So I think like he forgot to invite her to something and she was furious at him. But, then he later was able to make up for it, because he had been it wasn't like he was politically against, like...

Kate Johnson

Okay.

Kathryn Gehd

The Jefferson family at like, as this is happening, this exact moment that Ellen is writing. Stratford Canning is working very closely with Monroe on the Monroe Doctrine.

Kate Johnson

If he snubbed her maybe he was just a little preoccupied.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Kate Johnson

Didn't realize Jefferson's granddaughter was in town? 

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes. I think I think it actually was. She says she doesn't think it was here it is. "The neglect I've experienced from Mr. Canning has proceeded more from some absurd ideas of etiquette than from any intentional disrespect. He is generally considered a man of amiable temper and manners, although devoured by hypochondrism.

Kate Johnson

She has no she has no patience for hypochondriacs.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, she really doesn't. Okay, sorry. That's also a very Ellen sense. He's generally "considered a man of amiable tempered manners, although devoured by hypochondria and constitutional melancholy. When we meet in society, we are always as sociable as he knows how to be."

Kate Johnson

And it with a back handed compliment. Nicely done Ellen.

Kathryn Gehred 

So I don't think she she, she, she really turned around too much on him, but he's no longer a brute. He just yeah, he's as sociable as he knows how to be.

Kate Johnson

No longer having to cross out words in her description. something in here that that caught me when I was a couple things in the section that caught me when I was reading it. One is I think it's hilarious that she talks about owing her sister money for clothes.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes

Kate Johnson

You won't tell her how much money she owes. Now, it's like, that is such a relatable thing. And then the part where she talks about her Oh, yes, her pure white bonnet. How it's very tasty and French looking but very impractical. Cracked me up. It also kind of made me wonder I was like, oh, is Ellen Ellen? Did she get inherit her grandfather's Francophile ways? Because Jefferson, of course, is is well known for his his love of French things.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes. If you walk into Monticello, it is like a French house.

Kate Johnson

Yes, very much so.

Kathryn Gehred 

So was there something as you're going through this letter that you're like, Wow, that is very relatable. I feel where you're coming from Ellen.

Kate Johnson

One thing that that kind of struck me was Ellen's experience with the suitor. Yeah, was something that I could kind of identify with in that. Essentially, she's, she's taking pleasure in relating what's what's kind of like a bad first date. The best part of a bad date is getting to later regale your friends with a story, and that's kind of what she's doing. You know, we complain in modern day about how much dating sucks. But, but frankly, finding that kind of connection has always been a hard thing.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Kate Johnson

Even though of course in Ellen's time, there's some very different layers of pressure and expectations going on and different ideas about what constituted a good partner. But, but nevertheless, trying to find that that right match is just has always involved experiencing some uncomfortable, uncomfortable moments in the search.

Kathryn Gehred 

And is there anything that just sort of struck you is like very alien different?

Kate Johnson

I guess the most obvious thing difference that came to mind for me reading this was, was just that Ellen was so limited in what she could do in society as an adult Woman. You know, she's she's playing the society games of going to parties and making connections with the right people and keeping a tally of who's snubbed her family. But, other than sort of taking pleasure in the, the humor of relating these these happenings, she doesn't seem to actually enjoy the process that much. She's kind of bored with she sounds just kind of bored with it in some points, and she's, we talked about she's kind of, in low spirits in this letter for for a number of reasons. You know, she's kind of bored at her relative's house, and she left under weird circumstances, and all of that is going on. But just as we've been talking throughout this, she's just, she's so smart. And she's so witty. And she writes so well. And I just, I found myself as I was reading thinking about this like, man, if she had, if careers had been an option for her, she would have been a force of nature.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah, totally.

Kate Johnson

She would be running something that's for sure. She'd be in charge of something.

Kathryn Gehred 

Outside of just writing really sick burns, yes. anything surprise you.

Kate Johnson

The thing that kind of surprised me was, was her humor.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Kate Johnson

And just cash and just how much joy she she took from you get that sense from this letter that she just, she really took a lot of enjoyment out of relating these stories with a sense of humor. And I have to say I think humor, like as a historian humor is one of those is one of the tougher boundaries to try and overcome when you're reading historical documents. Because it can just be very tricky to gauge I mean, tone in writing just period can be tricky to gauge. Yeah, and your you've got these extra layers of historical language and historical mindsets. Humor can be like, especially sarcastic humor, which Ellen employs quite a bit here can be very hard to pin down. But she's done it in such a way that for the most part, I feel like I'm following along quite fine. With the just yet the level wit I wasn't expecting that. And it was wonderful. I make fun of her for being obnoxious at points, but I'm like, Oh, I'd probably be writing like too.

Kathryn Gehred 

Well. All right, Kate, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast.

Kate Johnson

Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. It has been a great pleasure to talk about this letter and just get to unpack the the fun historical insights and just the plain old fun things.

Kathryn Gehred

Yes.

Kate Johnson

Yeah, I I'm such a fan of what you're doing with this project. I think it's I think it's wonderful.

Kathryn Gehred 

Oh, thank you so much. So the text of this letter I will make available in the show notes for people who are interested. I'll try to provide some of the other notes that I was able to dig up in my research. So feel free to check that out. And once again, I am without question, your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.